Sept. 29, 2023
Clean Power Hour LIVE | Sept 28, 2023 | Speeding the Energy Transition with Sean White
Please take our listener survey. Stay up to date with the latest solar, wind, and energy storage news and analysis. Join co-hosts Tim Montague, solar & storage expert, and John Weaver, PV Magazine journalist, as they reflect on the latest tools, technologies, and trends driving the energy transition forward. With a strong commitment to decarbonizing the economy and building a safer, healthier future for humanity, this show is a must-watch for any energy professional looking to stay ahead...
Please take our listener survey.
Stay up to date with the latest solar, wind, and energy storage news and analysis. Join co-hosts Tim Montague, solar & storage expert, and John Weaver, PV Magazine journalist, as they reflect on the latest tools, technologies, and trends driving the energy transition forward. With a strong commitment to decarbonizing the economy and building a safer, healthier future for humanity, this show is a must-watch for any energy professional looking to stay ahead of the game. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, rate and review us on Apple or Spotify, and join us live every Thursday at 12 noon EST / 9 AM Pacific. Contact us at tim@cleanpowerhour.com or visit www.CleanPowerHour.com to learn more.
This week John Weaver and I were joined by Sean White and we discussed,
1. The events at the just concluded 2023 RE+ Convection
2. White House launches clean energy youth workforce program amid labor shortage concerns
3. We talk about the Erthos technology and what it means to the clean energy revolution
4. Companies that were present at the RE+ and the new upcoming technology
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The Clean Power Hour is produced by the Clean Power Consulting Group and created by Tim Montague. Contact us by email: CleanPowerHour@gmail.com
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The Clean Power Hour is brought to you by CPS America, maker of North America’s number one 3-phase string inverter, with over 6GW shipped in the US. With a focus on commercial and utility-scale solar and energy storage, the company partners with customers to provide unparalleled performance and service. The CPS America product lineup includes 3-phase string inverters from 25kW to 275kW, exceptional data communication and controls, and energy storage solutions designed for seamless integration with CPS America systems. Learn more at www.chintpowersystems.com
The Clean Power Hour is produced by the Clean Power Consulting Group and created by Tim Montague. Please subscribe on your favorite audio platform and on Youtube: bit.ly/cph-sub | www.CleanPowerHour.com | contact us by email: CleanPowerHour@gmail.com | Speeding the energy transition!
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Welcome to the Clean Power Hour live today is September 28 2023. I'm Tim Montague, your host check out all of our content at Clean Power hour.com. Give us a rating and review on Apple and Spotify.
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But more importantly, tell your friends about the show. That's how we're growing the show one, interview one news roundup at a time. We have a special guest today. Mr. Shawn White is here.
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And my co host, John Weaver, of course, Mr. commercial solar guy, welcome to the show. John.
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Timothy, I hope you have a great time. I hope your body is fully recovered from going out to RV plus my shoulders hurt from sleeping on a train and really bad beds with big giant overly fluffed pillows. But otherwise, it was great.
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So took took a three day train ride across the country.
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I'm curious, a train ride.
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Is that something you recommend to other Americans?
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Yes and no. 25% awesome. And that it was great to interact with people meet new people hanging out with my friends. 50% It was cool. You got to see the country. It was sort of relaxing on the weekend.
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25% It sucked. Because train tracks are crappy. They're all over. It's a slow ride. And you know, it's that we got to do better at our trains plus,
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like a French train, right?
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Wow, there's I have no idea what a French train is.
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But it definitely does make strange
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tilt as they go around the corners there. They aren't just like,
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tilt to ours tilt as well, but just a constant tilt every 12 seconds. And so it was cool. And but the key thing is it wasn't nearly as clean energy. And we can go over the numbers if you want. It wasn't nearly as clean energy as we thought it was it actually emitted more co2 per rider than taking an airplane. So there's that 27% more co2, we'll go over the math before the end of the show. But when you're flying high in an aeroplane, apparently, because we're releasing stuff up high, you multiply the co2 actually emitted by 1.9. And that makes the airplane have more of a climate effect, which is a different thing than co2. But more co2 was emitted, which totally confused us and then made us all do really hard work and write a good article and learn some stuff. So, so positive is definitely positive.
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As a professional, you should write the damn train. As a person who wants to see the countryside and make it a long trip like a three week trip across the United States.
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Awesome. Just, you know, don't plan on sleeping on the train too much because it's tough. But otherwise, it was great. You know, I liked hanging out with Christian and Peter Kelly. And they were just it was just good people. And we met Jake from Casey, who's going to a rock concert and wants to be a rocker in LA. And I hung out with John, who's religious guy. He's not Amish and he's not the other group that are in the Midwest to start with the letter M. But just had a great conversation.
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He's got six kids between the age of five months and nine years right, Mennonite but he's not a Mennonite. There we go.
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Not a Mennonite not an Amish.
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But yes, six kids. So it was great to meet that guy and his wife. So it was good trip, just, you know, realize it takes three
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days we're taking the X our religious purposes,
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they're going to Mexico for medical help. Because of course in the US medicine is three times more expensive than the rest of the world. That's my hypothesis. I don't explicitly know but a really good time. It was good time. Mennonites Thank you Chris. Thank you Chris. Just in case everybody anybody's worried. Mennonites we're going to
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we're going to give our listeners a roundup of already plus the 40,000 person strong Renewable Energy Conference that happened two weeks ago in Las Vegas. And but but Shawn white give us a give us an update on yourself. What do you what do you been up to in the last two weeks?
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Yeah, I've just been recovering from that already plus hangover and even though I wasn't drinking at all just it's really draining with all the Las Vegas carpets that take you in circles and try to get you stuck in front of slot machines and all that kind of stuff. And then you know trying to find my first booth there was was quite a trick going through different floors up and down. I think they just purposely try to get you lost and that's how they make money in Las Vegas is getting you lost in certain places.
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Yeah, I heard I heard I heard a lot of that but I you know I got I got to hang out at your booth so that was kind of fun. We were were even watching it for a while you went did something really important and that may or may not have
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been my stuff was still there when I got back so you did a good job guarding my recording equipment.
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I know what we were gonna do that was I was gonna hide your microphones and then and then put a little sign that said microphones $1 And
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that was fun. We did a recording I did a bunch of recording it already plus unfortunately the one you and John and I did was a fail the video failed the audio is still there and we might release that I'm I'm debating about that.
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I've also thought about making an animation using an AI using our voices. But that's more of a process. So we'll see. But
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I'm sure it was like the bad guys like the like maybe the fossil fuels and the other podcast shows were
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sabotage the camera or episode
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would say, actually, gentlemen, the the depth of us and the breadth of us was so significant that no mere memory card could hold the three of us in one place. So that's just we should be considering that for future shows. Timothy, just you know, bigger memory cards for the three of us. That's how's that?
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I liked it. I like it, besides us. But yeah, I mean, I think it is actually quite interesting to look back two weeks from the event when the dust is settled. And what stood out for us. I mean, for me, it was meeting all these amazing people who had never met before, in my booth, and you know, I talked about him, and I've released the episode now with my call hub of Anza. And he's the founder of Borrego, very storied energy entrepreneur. Clean Energy entrepreneur founded Borrego in 2002. In San Diego, that was really interesting interview released an interview with Amy Hart from Sunrun, the largest residential, solar and storage installer, they're doing about 800 megawatts, I think, this year. So they're doing about 10% of the residential solar installations in the United States. And Amy, Amy has made Lesnar she's from Milwaukee. So that was cool. She was very involved with mrea. In its early years, the Midwest Renewable Energy Association, which is a lesser known organization outside of the Midwest, but they're there Oh, geez, in clean energy, they were into solar, thermal, and wind. And now of course, PV. And they have a beautiful campus there. In Custer, Wisconsin, where they do a lot of NABCEP training, they have, you know, this roof, this demo roof that's on the ground where they do lots of training for people who do rooftop solar, and a room full of all different inverters. So you can see all the different flavors of string inverters and micro inverters.
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So very cool. And what about you, John? What, what are a few things that stood out for you from Ari?
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Oh, like Sean said, for me, it did take a tiny bit to get my bearings to move around the floor better made me think that as the show's growing, I have to be more professional with how I approach it and how I get on the floor.
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You know, I work half for PV magazine when I'm out there, and I work half for myself. And it's only two and a half days. You know, there's 13 I did some math. So over 1300 booths, you have essentially 20 hours on the floor. That's if you spend all day nine to five for two and a half days. That's 65 booths an hour. That's, you know, you can't just casually see 65 booths in an hour right? You can walk past them real fast but that's not what we do. We're professionals we work on this stuff we got to know so it it means I got to work harder go into a conference it's less a vacation which is good because that means we got volume. At least this conference, you know, I have to be more strategic I know big companies, they just set big appointments and they just have people come to their booths I'm at a different side of the game still you know what I don't have a big players coming to me yet but it is seeing people was great. I had a cool interview with three sun and their solar panel that pathway exists but halfway doesn't it's gonna break 25% in February. That's pretty cool. I spoke with fluke I spoke with several other groups. I spoke with an investment firm. Lots of great handshakes got see you for a moment, Tim twice multiple times we saw each other and I don't know it's good. Good conference other than the really terrible pillows. Can nobody put a thin pillow in a hotel room.
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Do these all have to be like 3x thick pillows? I mean, come on.
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Are there is that? am I abnormal and liking a thin pillow? I think
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I am totally.
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There we go two out of three. That's it's done.
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Decision made thin pillows everywhere.
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I like a medium pillow firm. I don't like feather pillows. I don't like super mushy pillows. But too thin is no good either.
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Sometimes I'll just go with no pillow. You know it's better for your neck.
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Wow. Wow. But his words Shawn, lay on your back
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and get like a straight.
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That's caveman territory.
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I rather lay on a rock than no pillow.
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You don't want to have a cervical kyphosis you know,
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I don't even know what that word means. Yeah, what
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is this really gnarly
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word. All right.
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All right. So, so it's good conference, lots of people. It's growing. We're gonna keep doing better. I like the fact that the industry is growing. I spoke with BayWa. I have an interview with Baywatch.
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And the next couple of days, we're listening to the guy at BayWa. Speak. It's like, Wow, you guys are big players. You have a different. You have a long game viewpoint. He was like he they've got billions of dollars in interconnection fees in their project pipeline, just interconnection fees in the billions. Absolutely something.
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It's just like, wow, that's a lot of a lot of interconnection stuff for you guys to consider.
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So let's cool stuff
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you talked about was development arm.
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Yeah, I have his name somewhere on a notepad. But yes, he was one of their developer guys.
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Yes, they're they're a strange company.
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Because they also you know, they're their supply house. They sell solar equipment, they have a headquarters in New Mexico for that business. Then they have that development shop based in Southern California. And they have a no one M. R two, I think.
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big company. Yep. Yep. Who else did I see? I saw Paul grano at Helia scope, got an interview with him. I still haven't looked at that content. So I don't know if that's gonna get published.
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Hopefully it will. A lot of question marks about my interviews now that I had a few fails, but got to see Matt Campbell from Terra bass, one of my favorite companies, they're chasing automation of construction. So they have a system for putting modules on torque tubes in a pop up factory that they put on site on solar construction sites. And then they so they're, they're taking modules off a conveyor belt, the robot, puts them on the torque tube and mounts them to the torque tube, and then lifts that torque tube, which now weighs 1000 pounds, because it's full of solar modules and puts it on a semi today semi autonomous vehicle. The coolest thing that Matt showed me is they've got a full platform for tracking the construction project. So they can see where all the vehicles are, what goes where and pre programmed the the construction, so the vehicle or the vehicle driver, I mean, they have an autonomous vehicle, but today, they're mostly semi autonomous meaning there is a driver in the vehicle. But the driver knows exactly where to go, right?
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There's just no question that computers telling it. Okay, this is where that torque tube is going. And so they have a real time monitoring system effectively for solar contraction, which I think is going to be very interesting to EPCs whether or not they embrace the robots just knowing what's going on on your solar, you know, site I think is is useful.
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I'll give you that. Yeah. And spend some time with earth house, the flat solar flat to Earth solar is their moniker and made some introductions for them to some independent engineers and and other people that are interested in their product that's a very controversial product. I will say everyone has an opinion like people go Oh, interesting, or Oh, that's not going to work. But after you know after talking with with the earth those folks you know, extensively now i i think there's a there there and pine gate is one of the largest developers in the US is doing 100 megawatt project with that Earth was flat to Earth Did Did either of you visit the earth those booth?
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Yeah, there's a lot activity. There's, it's pretty neat. There's just like, completely, like ground level solar. All I was thinking is like, I hope that deer don't jump the fence.
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Otherwise, there'll be ice skating on the solar panels,
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especially robots to clean it off. And yeah,
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I visited the booth. And I learned a few things that were neat one, the robots bigger than I thought.
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It's just the first time I saw it to the robot and the package that they sell. They're sold in two megawatt chunks, and a robots plan to clean one megawatt of the panels each night. It's charged remotely by the DC three, that 100 megawatt chunk of that 100 megawatt deal they announced I think, is 100 megawatts in Mississippi. They could have had 180 megawatts and Mississippi I can't remember they had a couple of big announcements. But that project is going to have 50 little robots, and I would love to see a video at night a drone video.
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Each robot has some lighting on it. So I would love to see a robot a video of the robots just out there all cleaning at night with like lights on it or something. Somebody's gonna make a phone call and be like there's aliens on the solar panel farm.
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Doing something with all these weird lights. I just thought it looked neat. You when you purchase their hardware, you are purchasing some engineering, you're purchasing a production guarantee. you're purchasing robots, or nm for the robots.
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They have a special racking along the edge. It's concrete blocks and then you have to buy metal chains of sorts not chain He's really wire metal wire to hold the modules down. But you do have to get custom solar modules, or custom solar module frames. Because the, by the way, it's 100 megawatts of Earth, I was in Mississippi per one of our Facebook watchers. But the frames have little holes in them, so that the Earth, those cable can go through the frame edge. And so you do have to customize your modules a bit. So that might have an effect on pricing availability, you know, spot market stuff, but you know, 100 Meg's, you're not buying modules on the spot, what has
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to be customized about the module. So it goes through two cables go through both directions.
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It's still it's a frame. So it's a frame on the module have a frame, but
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all all framed modules have framed like frames like not have holes,
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though, their frames don't have holes in them.
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So they literally in the side part where it's a vertical, you know, the one inch, you go across the side, you got to have holes in there. And so that's how you have to customize it right there. And it seems like Earth I was just talking with all the big players for that. So I was, you know, at the end of it, I was like, I know the density, that high energy density, I believe that See, I knew was 180 megawatt project in Mississippi. That's a big deal.
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180 Meg's and
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I'm close to that project in Mississippi. That's a different project that I'm referring to Pine gate has 100 megawatt project with her first which was announced last year.
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The Mississippi project is very interesting. It's a solar and storage project. That's really all I can say about it.
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But oh, you know, stuff. I didn't know stuff. I got an NDA, ladies and gentlemen has an NDA. Alright,
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I'm excited that they're, they're pursuing Earth.
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Oh, so I think that's a smart move. Because the kicker with with earth O's is that they achieve a 20% reduction in LC OE. And that's an that's eye opening. Well,
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that let's talk about what that is. Because it's pretty cool. One massively lesser amounts of metal, for racking, like all the metal external,
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tons of steel per megawatt John
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Daigo, so 180 Meg's times 35 That's per megawatt.
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180 times 35, that's 3300.
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That's almost 7700 tons of steel, something no 7000, somewhere around there. Tons.
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That's a lot of steel.
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Moving around, you don't have to buy it or move it around or put it in the ground.
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That adds up, right, so the construction is going to be faster and cheaper. And the question is, will it will it be as resilient when the panels are on the ground? They're going to get hotter. And they admit this, because they don't have air blowing on the backside to remove the heat. Right. And the critters are right there. And well, the critters make the module or the wiring problems sooner than later. TBD. Although they have a couple, you know, they have like half a dozen plants that are operating now.
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Most of them are in California.
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Yeah. Most of them are smaller.
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Yeah, they're in the one to five megawatt range.
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Yeah, I heard they're getting the gophers to make the wire runs, you know, train the gophers. And it's a great wire. So they're, they pull them through
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those guys. Big Eddy. Absolutely. Yeah. Feed them peanuts.
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And then you just put a little chip in their head and remote control them.
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Oh, that's amazing.
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We got the robots go for eat animals. Yeah.
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Oh, my goodness.
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Well, that's interesting that Robert Sturgill knows about this, this earthen steel. But that's good. Good that people are taking notice. I mean, I love trackers. But when you talk to people about trackers, trackers also have problems, right, the a stop tracking sometimes. And then you're losing energy. It's a it's a grand experiment we're doing but apparently, the interesting factoid that I learned by talking to Jim Tyler the CEO of Earth owes is that when trackers came on the scene, they provided a 5% improvement in LCA OE and in in something like six years they went from a small percentage to 70% of the solar installations utility scale solar installations. So that 5% bump in Elsa LCL II was a game changer for trackers now are those is saying they can improve that by 20 over what trackers provide. So that is truly a game changer. And I think it's I think we're gonna see a lot of Earth those until proven otherwise. Right?
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They can be put on a surface that is curved, I think up to seven degrees. They were showing one of their projects, they had a little map a layout, and I believe in the northwest corner, you could see a curve on the ground for that where the modules and the robot can handle the curve as well for cleaning. So they do they can deal with that. Yeah, 20% is it's just that they're different. That's it, it's different, different is scary.
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And when we're dropping 100 million bucks on different, you know, you got to talk about pine gate and they're doing a megawatt project, they're probably spending 70 cents per hour, or per per watt, that's$70 million. That's going into this project.
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I think of a mound like a landfill, many landfills are the shape of a mound, okay, you could put it on the south facing side of a landfill because there's not a lot of up and down on the landfill. It's generally just like this big round hump. And I think the earth Oh system, it's like, it's like a solar skin on the earth.
00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:58.049
That's a great way of saying it as you're talking about landfill. That's
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the thing that concerns people is like, well, nothing is going to grow underneath that you're putting a parking lot down. And I'm like, You're right, you're right.
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Nothing, but worms is going to grow underneath that the worms are going to be super happy.
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But, but you're off the space of a traditional soccer. So you're saving ground. In the greater scheme of things. You're saving some ground that yeah, it could be dual use solar. But I just I think it's gonna be a both and right I don't think Earth owes is gonna get traction in northern climates where there's a lot of snow.
00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:38.339
I you know, I'll argue against that. Here's why.
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And because I'm working on it, though. So the northern climates with snow might have an evolved financial model and an evolved game. The reason Earth those doesn't do northern climates is because they offer or they used to offer a power production guarantee, where they guaranteed X amount of solar would be generated during the course of the year. That was their fundamental business plan. Now it's evolving, they have a putt from kWh and analytics, so that the output can still be guaranteed, but it's no longer held on Earth, those books, so it's changing. But with that, because of those offers this power production guarantee, they have a they don't want to deal with anything. Like they don't want to do anything like losing production days, like snow. So if you have snow on the thing for three, four or five days, earth, those are saying, Hey, we're at risk. But as I was speaking with the owner of Earth, oh saw, I can't remember his name right now I saw him at the booth. Founder. Well, then it was a different guy,
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.099
because the guy again,
00:22:36.150 --> 00:23:49.799
different different guy, maybe I don't have no idea who the founder is. The gentleman does the work. He talks to me on LinkedIn, he does make proposals, I can picture his face right now. But wouldn't you say we were talking about this. And the idea was, well, if we could, as a developer take on snow day risk, meaning let's say it's a snow day, and we have one to three days, if we were to remove those days from the guaranteed output, and just make the rest of the days guarantee the sunny ones, the non snow days, then that meets the game that covers the issue. And the issue is protecting the output guarantee because everybody's worried. This is what it is you're putting panels flat, we in the industry need to optimize. We have trackers we follow the sun. And Earth dose is the exact opposite philosophy. It's just some stuff on the ground going flat. Well, how do you? How do you go from the exact opposite of Uber optimize tracking the sun to flat, you guarantee output? And so if you can guarantee the output deal with the snow that fixes the challenge, and so I have a feeling northern pieces of property will end up with some earth those probably less but some?
00:23:50.009 --> 00:23:53.099
Yeah. And perhaps they could have snow cleaning robots?
00:23:53.250 --> 00:24:14.490
Yeah, I've thought of that, too. I mean, there's no doubt that we humans use machines to clear snow off of surfaces like sidewalks or and roofs for that matter. And you could make a robot that'll shovel the snow, at least most of it. The question is, will the modules get damaged when you do that? But that's a quick question for the robo cleaners.
00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:44.579
I'm sure they're thinking of Robo sweepers also. And good question from Joe Scharf about frost heave, there's really nothing that goes in the ground except around the perimeter where they they build this curb around the array out of concrete block. And those blocks are attached to the ground with like stakes, I think. But otherwise, I don't think frosty would affect an earth though. So Ray, because there's not piles in the ground. So
00:24:44.730 --> 00:24:56.549
and, and if the ground itself does shift a little, that's cool, because the modules aren't locked into a spot. They can shift a little bit with the ground, right. So so there's some flexibility.
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:15.690
All right. Let's Let's talk about what else we saw it or at our UI, and then maybe get into some current news that has happened in the last couple of weeks. I want to talk about the climate core that the Biden administration as launched interesting concept, curious what you guys think about that.
00:25:15.690 --> 00:25:19.410
But what are their take homes?
00:25:15.690 --> 00:25:25.019
Did you have an eye, I forgot to mention a couple quick shout out to let's see infinity energy.
00:25:25.079 --> 00:26:10.769
They're a vanadium flow storage company, I did an interview with them. I did an interview with Lyon energy, which is going after residential storage. Now, there was a lot of storage companies lying I know from mobile storage, like they make batteries for RVs and boats. But now going after the residential space, LG has launched a robust residential product. Very interesting. I have to say it, it made me want to just talking with it's very, it's very modular. Yeah, just like very plug and play. I got the sense that it's like, really, they've really ironed out the system.
00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:42.210
And, you know, that's in the world of storage. That's the one complaint I hear from EPCs is like, the integration is complicated. And it depends on who the company is. But even with Tesla, which is a, they integrate the equipment themselves, right, they're like, it's end to end. They make the software, they make the hardware, they containerize everything. Whereas for most storage companies, there's like a third party integrator that puts the package together. And then the question is, is it all going to work? And is the finger pointing going to start?
00:26:43.799 --> 00:27:18.180
Because, you know, you think you just interconnected and flip the switch and boom, right? Well, turns out not so much, right, like getting the battery to do exactly what it's designed to do. And to shut off or shut or turn on under very specific circumstances is not trivial. So I don't have any hands on experience with LG. And obviously they've had their share of problems over the years but but anyway, there they were there in force with a Rosie's storage.
00:27:18.628 --> 00:27:41.098
So so if you guys heard a Beulah solar that was a new one that came out it was it's a company that was developed by a doctor, she the guy that founded Sun tech. And he's been he's been making some flat or some some flexible PV modules. And so he calls it Sun man in different markets, but they they made it below solar in the US market.
00:27:41.128 --> 00:27:41.848
How do you spell that?
00:27:42.869 --> 00:27:56.369
I think it's bi la bi LS Geller? And they're, they're making a factory and Indiana. Yeah. And it's like, I think it's like a PVC layer with solar cells on it.
00:27:57.029 --> 00:28:00.000
I remember we did talk about this at Ari, right.
00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:02.490
We did. I brought it up. Yeah.
00:28:02.789 --> 00:28:35.309
And so one of the things that they're doing is they're, I think gluing it on top of a, you know, low sloped roof, which is kind of interesting. And what what else was just kind of randomly interesting. I was over there talking to them, is they put their booth right next to the Suntec booth. And so that was that he was the, you know, founded Suntech, it was the world's largest solar manufacturer, somewhere around like 2008, nine. And then the government took it back from him. I don't know how things work in China, or I don't want to know. And, but then they were kind of their next door neighbors.
00:28:35.339 --> 00:28:41.400
So yeah, so I thought that module was interesting. It's really tall.
00:28:37.589 --> 00:29:12.240
It's over seven feet long. It's over four feet wide, 19 piers, I'm reading off the article I wrote on it. 19% efficiency, 520 watts. And one thing that was cool, because they're so thin and lightweight, it's like literally, it's quarter of an inch thick. You can fit 11 120 units in a 40 foot shipping container, which is 583 kW. So you can do half a meg, which is almost double a standard shipping container, which is more than double a standard shipping container. And I just thought that was kind of cool.
00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:30.210
There's just you can just fit a whole bunch of them. You've put 60 units on a sheet, a single shipping container, or a single a single pallet, and each one is 500. So that's like, that's like 30 kW per pallet. That seems pretty cool. It's just a lot of energy on a single pallet. I thought that was kind
00:29:30.210 --> 00:29:32.940
of how many kW to get in a container.
00:29:33.449 --> 00:29:39.628
583 583.44 Wow.
00:29:33.449 --> 00:29:45.989
Yeah, that's double. I mean, shipping container 250 to 300 is awesome in my world. So doubling that with this product, which is neat,
00:29:46.138 --> 00:29:50.788
and it's designed to be glued down. Like it's a peel and stick or
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:57.329
I think you just stick some glue underneath it and put it down on the roof.
00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:59.789
Okay, and the whole their selling point. It's kind of like the cylinder a selling point.
00:29:59.789 --> 00:30:08.970
It's Lightweight. Yep. You know, and so there's a lot of roofs that you can't put solar on, because they can't take the weight. And so you could just stick this stuff on it.
00:30:11.429 --> 00:30:16.769
It makes me think that there's a there's an earth house competitor here.
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:33.900
Oh, yeah, I mean, you can't put I mean, you could potentially put these modules on the ground, but they'd be even closer to the roof than standard modules. Because these things are flat and thin. There's nothing to hold them up. So you'd want you know, at least the frame holds up the Earth.
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:37.049
Oh, sma or an earth those module from this from the land?
00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:45.630
Well, yeah, you'd have to, you'd have to glue it to something, but you could glue it to plywood. Yeah, maybe something like that. I don't know. plywood to
00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:57.420
hurt yourself. Some Earth glue? Yeah. Let's put it on top. A Half Dome. That's some good that'll stick to that.
00:30:58.349 --> 00:31:00.539
Some Gorilla Glue.
00:30:58.349 --> 00:31:00.539
Just gorilla glue everywhere.
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:00.839
Right?
00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:15.029
Yeah, some nice some granite and stick it to some granite. But yeah, it's, it was kind of cool. And I've seen him developing it too. Before when it was called Sun man. When I went to the snick conference in 2019, in fact, yeah.
00:31:16.230 --> 00:31:18.269
Oh, so they've been around for a few years now.
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:24.900
Yeah, they just kind of rebranded it for the US. And I think they were more developing at that time.
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:28.140
Oh, founded in 2014.
00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.839
But I be Biela.
00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:38.190
Solar is like the new name. So if you looked up sun man, that was Dr. Shi. Do you remember Dr.
00:31:38.190 --> 00:31:51.329
Shi, he was kind of famous back then he was on the cover of the magazines and all that. I think he was like the richest guy in China at the time. And Sun Tech was just like growing like crazy. Number one manufacturer in the world.
00:31:52.049 --> 00:32:02.579
And he came out of that Australian lab. That is the Yeah, that's still the originator of PARCC technology as well. Yes. Topcon.
00:32:03.388 --> 00:32:07.439
University New South Wales. Yep. Yeah, him and Martin group he studied under Martin green.
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:09.990
Martin green.
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:15.000
Yeah. I heard an interview with Martin green recently on the idea to or there was a podcast.
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:24.930
I can't remember the name of the show. But I think Bernie won the podcast, or Bloomberg. It's called zero or something like that. Right?
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:31.619
Yeah, Martin gave me a like a solar award at the snick conference in 2018. He was he was handing them out.
00:32:33.750 --> 00:32:39.059
Wow. That's cool, man. Yeah. So you met Martin?
00:32:39.990 --> 00:33:00.210
Yeah, I've met him a few times. I remember hanging out with him in South Africa at a conference over there a number of years ago. And but he he kind of does a lot of international stuff. And I'm good friends with the lady that owns snack. And so I go to her dinners and things like that. And they are all those people kind of hang out.
00:33:01.829 --> 00:33:03.269
You snack. What is snick?
00:33:03.929 --> 00:33:12.659
snick is the world's largest solar conference. I think they had about 300,000 people. This more recent one.
00:33:12.898 --> 00:33:37.048
And it's in Shanghai. It's it stands for I think Shanghai New Energy Corporation, okay. But it's huge. They have like this hugest Convention Center. It's like, it's like, it's like ar e plus, plus, plus, plus plus. And they actually do work with the RV plus people. And they they kind of coordinate with different international conferences, I think like, they were doing something with together with solar power Mexico and some different things.
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:43.140
And I've heard about it conference. It's not it's no game. Yeah, it's
00:33:43.140 --> 00:34:01.680
like, like, in between all these conference calls. You could land like a big airplane. And, and they're just in they fill them all up. It's It's insane. It's like so many miles. I mean, it's like, if you wanted to see all the booths there, instead of like 65 booths per hour, you'd probably be like 1000 booths an hour or something like that, and
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.059
they let you ride scooters around or how do you get around such a big place? You
00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:18.630
just wear good shoes and have sore feet. And you don't see everything. And they have like the scientific conference too. And they have like these fancy dinners and all this kind of stuff. But it's it's pretty fun.
00:34:19.590 --> 00:34:21.570
So you've been to that how many times Shawn?
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:36.329
Probably like about six or seven times? I've been going for since I don't know like 2000 I probably wouldn't like 2008 or nine or something like that. Or no like maybe nine or 10 something like that.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.179
And are you doing are you doing training in Asia as well.
00:34:43.289 --> 00:35:05.880
You know, I have off and on but you know, they they like to get stuff for free. It's kind of hard to do change training, the whole lot of training there. But you know, I've done I've done some classes there. And like I've done some at this At conference and I did one for photon magazine one time over in Shanghai, which was kind of cool.
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:18.719
By the way, Sean, were signed up for your training course with Rochelle. She's our project manager, office manager do all kinds of stuff manager.
00:35:13.889 --> 00:35:38.309
And we have a training set for her so she can get her technical sales. I don't know maybe the intro one there's an intro boot camp first or an intro thing and then a second level we may work toward so thank you for following up really quickly at the show. I can't remember the gentleman that reached out but it he was he was fat. I'll probably Brian hidden properly.
00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:50.219
Yes, it was Brian. Yeah. Brian reached out had lots of good data and answered with shells questions helped her get logged in. We have like a company portal now. So I guess I can track everybody and make sure they do their homework. And yeah, it's important. Yeah. I'm not gonna
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:57.780
want anybody slacking. You know, people sign up for a class. And then they're like, oh, yeah, I'm working on it. And they're not liars.
00:35:54.989 --> 00:35:57.780
Liars.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:04.440
Yeah. But so so we are signed up. So hopefully, it's cool. I'll let you know how Rachelle likes it. And, you know,
00:36:04.590 --> 00:36:26.460
and you get to go at your own pace, and then you get a whole year's access. And you could always extend that. And you can watch videos over and over again, it's, um, I have trouble doing that with live in person trainings like rewind doesn't work too well. So when you're talking to somebody, so that, so yes, I love the platform. I love working with hotspring.
00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:31.079
Well, if she's going for PV technical sales, so she'll have to take my course as well.
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:33.690
Yeah, yeah, she's probably in there, right? Yeah.
00:36:34.469 --> 00:36:35.219
Yeah.
00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:37.110
I mean, I don't know which one she's taking.
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:39.269
She's probably with the associates.
00:36:39.659 --> 00:37:04.590
I think that's what you signed us up for Sean was the associates first, and then we're gonna go toward the technical sales, as we figure it out, get used to it. So learning pretty cool to see, that'd be two people within us who have a NABCEP certification. That'd be very nice. And we're just hiring inside sales guy recently. So maybe, maybe I'll make him take a class. But I don't want to make him take any classes. He's a noose, new guy, we'll see.
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:11.550
Ya make all these Practice Exams, which help people pass their NABCEP exams.
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:18.510
So that helps a lot too. And I answer every question every day, and have a lot of fun. So fun and learning, it makes you remember stuff.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:49.980
All right, well, let's dig into the newsboys. I want to talk about the Biden administration launching the climate corps. This is on utility dive. And this is yeah, a week old now White House launches clean energy youth Workforce Program amid labor shortage concerns. And, you know, I'm fond of saying that humans are the limiting factor in the clean energy transition or a major limiting factor, not the only limiting factor.
00:37:46.889 --> 00:38:51.750
Interconnection cues are a major limiting factor, getting our utilities to wake up and smell the coffee that they have to change or die. And, and one way or another, they're gonna they're gonna change and get with the clean energy transition. There is a good story, by the way, I don't know if you guys saw that about the 25 utilities that are going after it, so to speak. So in Canary media, maybe we'll get to that later. But, but this Climate Corp is a great idea, right? I mean, we have the report where we have the Peace Corps, we have a Teach for America, which is an educational corps basically right for getting youth involved in education in inner cities across the country. And now we have the climate Corps, which is encouraging the marine corps who well 20,000 Peace corpse is their is their goal, right? Have ya are in one year, putting 20,000 Americans to work in conservation and clean energy. I think that's a wonderful idea.
00:38:48.989 --> 00:39:17.309
Because I think that in our educational system, the trades for one thing are neglected. And so people don't think so much about that. They think about going to college, where they learn a bunch of stuff that's not very useful. Generally speaking, I went to college for way too long. I know full well about that. So this will encourage people to go potentially straight out of high school, I think, yeah,
00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:34.800
yeah. You know, it kind of reminds me of is like how people are talking about we need to do a full on mobilization, like World War Two to, you know, fight the war on co2, bad molecule. And so this is kind of like doing that, you know, the course it sounds kind of almost military like
00:39:36.659 --> 00:40:30.300
yeah, you know, we had the civil Conservation Corps back during the depression in the in the late 20s and early 30s. And they did a bunch of good things. They built a bunch of facilities at national parks around the country, right, it put unemployed men mostly to work. And so it was it was a it was a floor it gave people paying jobs doing building infrastructure that, you know, benefit all Americans. And, and that's, you know, that's the idea here is that we'll, we'll put young Americans to work working on the energy transition. And we need more workers in the energy transition, we need a million new electricians, and some fraction of those people that go through the climate corps will, you know, go on to very successful careers in, in clean energy, maybe you can hire them, John?
00:40:30.900 --> 00:41:06.690
Well, as soon as I thought I submitted our company, that we would be willing to host workers, and we'd be interested in it. So yes, I have an interest in it, I'd like to see how it works, what it would cost, how we can manage it, because hiring a having a person, as on your team means you have to take care of that person, you have to give them work, you have to not waste their existence. And, you know, we have to make sure that we are organized well enough to take on the responsibility of young workers. And so that matters to me is being able to to deliver.
00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:19.980
And also if you have people that are motivated, they're also going to work out do better work on their own and just chase stuff. So that'd be probably a positive of this particular type of people that are going. But yeah, I think it's a good idea.
00:41:17.369 --> 00:41:50.219
I think we want to train more I would love to get involved in training electrical apprentices, electrical apprentice see. I think as a GC, for some of our projects, we're at some point going to be required to have an apprentice program inside of us once we break for employees. And so it's, I like I like the idea of it, I hope they do it. 20,000 people working in the industry is just a start. And if there's any sort of federal support for the wage for the base salary, then I'm all in.
00:41:52.230 --> 00:42:01.440
Yeah, good paying jobs doing good things for the environment and human health.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:43:36.780
It's, it's a win win. All right, well, let's talk about solar panel manufacturing, I heard a webinar yesterday with clean energy associates on PV on PV magazine are sponsored by PV magazine. And we're going to talk about your story here, John, that you wrote in, in PV magazine on this topic, but in that, in that webinar, they point out that there is now potentially 60 gigawatts of panel factory activity in the US by 2027 2030, something like that. So a lot of activity, they were caution, they cautioned listeners that it's going to be some fraction of that. That's the upper limit, they think it might be closer to 60. But they had this amazing chart, and I don't know what those this chart is, is called, but it's it's like lines, curved lines that connect dots, and they were tracking, you know, the process from silicon to wafer to cell to module, and how convoluted it is. And very difficult to know, you know, if it's not spelled out explicitly in the vom of a module, where particular components came from. And you know what, what this is all about is trying to get that 10% out or on the ITC for made in America equipment, right. So anyway, it was that was interesting. But what's the story that you wrote for PV magazine, a terawatt of solar module capacity expected within 16 months.
00:43:38.039 --> 00:44:12.690
So new hardware, new manufacturing facilities, available only in China are no only by large Chinese manufacturers. So this doesn't include first solar, Meyer burger or other groups like that. So Chinese manufacturers will break at the end of this year. So we're talking like three months, Jonah will break 860 gigawatts of capacity. And next year, this is just modules next year, they'll break a terawatt. And so by the end of
00:44:12.690 --> 00:44:15.659
the five here, right, yeah, the all in?
00:44:16.170 --> 00:44:21.090
Yeah, so by end of 2024, they'll break the terawatt is the projection.
00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:26.849
Wow, a terawatt a year? Yes, sir. Wow, I thought that was supposed to be 2030.
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:30.719
Yeah, yeah. No, we just we didn't we got bored with that.
00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:33.630
I know. I was bored.
00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:33.630
Yeah.
00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:37.679
You know. 500.
00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:37.889
Meg's that's so 2024. Let's, you know,
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:49.079
so yeah, just just to put that in perspective, all the solar installed from beginning to time until like mid last year was one terawatt. Now, it's gonna be a terawatt a year next year.
00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:59.280
Yeah. Shawn, you need to get into development. We need you in the development side. The training is important though, so we might have to keep you there. You have to get bigger. You have to train more people. Shawn, can you do this?
00:44:59.670 --> 00:45:06.150
Well, I got it. It's all online. I could I could handle it. Good. I could do the whole 20,000 and the corpse
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:13.590
done to him on Thursday, if you could, next Thursday, it'll it'll be done.
00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:55.260
Didn't take care of 20 Yeah, it's just Oh, terawatt dude. And this is just Chinese manufacturers. It's mostly top con. So it looks like the China has chosen Topcon as its product as your there's a lot of other technologies. poly silicon capacity, even it's very complex for poly silicon. But poly silicon capacity is going to be like three terawatts, two terawatts for terawatts of capacity by like 2027. So and there's, you know, complications in that market, the price just, you know, chopped by two thirds, went from almost 40 bucks a kilogram down to like 10. So it's chopped by three fourths, something like that. But now factories aren't opening as quickly as they were announced.
00:45:55.260 --> 00:46:35.460
And we're starting to see the market respond. But still, nonetheless, if we're going to have before 2026 A terawatt, we might have it before the end of next year. A terawatt. Now, there's another gentleman who's from XO watt. believe they're a consultancy firm, he messaged me and he said, in terms of total capacity, we might have already been above a terawatt, however, it wasn't necessarily newish capacity it was product, that's a little older lines that just don't run as much. And so we do have capacity. And I think that was a key thing that Jenny Chase from Bloomberg told me about.
00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:50.460
She goes, John, just because we have a terawatt of capacity doesn't mean we're going to install it. It's a regular thing to expect that the operating the utilization of these lines might be 50%. Might be 45. Might be 60. So, you know, be tempered
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:51.960
reps are capacity.
00:46:53.849 --> 00:46:56.280
Like 24/7 operation, then
00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:35.099
not 24/7. Yeah, yes. So when you look at the first if you scroll up Oh, yeah, that right there is capacity. So that is that's if not 24/7. But there's enough machines in place to do a terawatt. So it's not saying there will be a terawatt installed. Nobody's predicting that yet. Next year, the predictions are for like 500 gigs this year, near 400 Plus, so next year, you know, maybe we'll have five 600 gigs installed. Maybe 2027. Is the earliest I've seen anybody predict one terawatt of capacity actually deployed in the year.
00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:39.239
But, but yeah, but this capacity?
00:47:39.809 --> 00:47:46.829
So with one terawatt of capacity, that doesn't mean they're making a terawatt of solar modules, correct? Yeah.
00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:47.639
Okay. So that
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:54.239
means they have the factories to do it. If the demand is there, they'll do it.
00:47:49.500 --> 00:48:59.579
They have the machines. And, you know, that's, that's pretty close. I mean, recently, the machines have been running at 90%. capacity utilization, so pretty heavy. But now we're going into a massive expansion period. As you can see, we're doubling over the course of this past year to the end of this year. And during that doubling, you know, there's less than perfect efficiency, the world evolves as it goes through these aggressive moves. And but, but it's going to be there, and it's why the price of solar panels have collapsed. And I actually have a story on that from PV mag just to show but the price of solar panels, international pricing has collapsed to 15 cents a watt 16 cents a watt, just a year ago, it was 40 coming out of China make the solar panels 1011 12 1314. Like yours, there's some the people at the low end are getting squeezed. The people in the middle are holding their margins, the people selling it at 2025. They're making some money. But the price of poly silicon has fallen significantly. And that's the main driver of solar panel pricing. Beyond demand, of course.
00:49:01.230 --> 00:49:03.750
I think we have tariffs. Yeah. And
00:49:03.750 --> 00:49:07.980
that's a whole nother thing for the US. So our pricing is always higher than everyone else.
00:49:09.690 --> 00:49:13.019
Because we care about those people that are manufacturing this stuff.
00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:14.489
Tariffs
00:49:14.489 --> 00:49:21.869
don't really help related story, John, because this is very related. This is the story found in PV tech.
00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:28.349
North America has $12 trillion on the table for renewables generation and grids. I'm putting this on screen now.
00:49:28.769 --> 00:49:32.760
According to DNV, what what exactly is that story though?
00:49:33.449 --> 00:49:52.590
So DNV is just modeling looking forward, what's changing in the United States, for grid upgrades for generation, the reports based in transmission and generation, I mostly, of course, looked at the solar portion of it because that's what I care about. But 12 trillion to be spent by 2050.
00:49:52.829 --> 00:50:52.710
Half of the money is scheduled to go into the generation side of things and if you look at the solar number, they state that up proximately what's the solar number? And, yeah, 2.3 trillion of solar and 1.6 trillion of wind, by the mid end with solar becoming the main generation technology in the mid 2030s. And almost half of North America's power consumption. And power consumption also takes into account that we're transferring a lot of things from energy into electricity to for use there versus now when we have transportation, heating and cooling or at least heating being done by gas. So half of power consumption by 2050. Pure solar. So we have, you know, 2.3 trillion, we got 20 years. 25 years. Yes, that's 100 billion a year of solar, roughly, you know, super roughly. Not bad.
00:50:53.519 --> 00:51:01.349
Not bad. That's that. I just thought it was a cool, big number. And I like the reports.
00:50:57.659 --> 00:51:01.349
Yes. Yeah.
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:46.469
It says by 2050, they expect Lcia to be $20 per megawatt hour. Oh, 36 cents for PV and storage. That's two cents a kWh. $20 megawatt hours, two cents a kWh. And that's and that's what Jim Tyler Thoreau said is kind of the Holy Grail, like once you get down in that two cent range in electricity is cheap enough to use it for green hydrogen, or other industrial processes. You can make a heat you can power a heat battery, like Rondo does. Alright,
00:51:47.130 --> 00:52:07.980
I like the big reports that show the big fat numbers because it keeps me motivated to some degree because it's like, alright, I can pay my bills, and I'm gonna big industry that's gonna generate a lot of revenue. And all I need is a little tiny piece. So it gives me like, I can grow as a human being and as a business person. So that's why I like those big fat headline numbers.
00:52:06.030 --> 00:52:07.980
They look cool.
00:52:09.869 --> 00:52:30.539
Well, talking about a fat number, Michael Bloomberg, has donated $500 million to close all US coal plants. And this is not the first time he's donated a big lump of cash. I think this is a very interesting, big lump of coal. That's right, it's way better than a big lump of coal.
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:53.969
Let me put this on screen. But you know, there is a there is a concept floating around in the interwebs about we could just buy out the fossil fuel industries. For some few trillions of dollars. It's it's it's a it's a surprisingly small number. I don't know what that number is off the top of my head, but, but this is what Bloomberg is pointing to that.
00:52:54.360 --> 00:54:12.869
Yeah, we can we can actually accelerate the closure of all the remaining coal plants in the United States for some price tag and he's putting 500 million into that cause I don't know if somebody is, is agreeing to match that or, or what but yeah, I'll do it. Yeah. Okay, great. I appreciate that John. And he had you know, he had previously given I think an equal amount to the Sierra Club and to their initiative on on shutting down coal plants. And yeah, they're they're beyond coal campaign. So maybe this is a just a repeat gift to the same campaign I'm not sure. But But the long and short of this is that it works it's like yeah, when when there's a there's a bit of a carrot for grid operators to just say Yeah, well will you give us give us a carrot and we'll shut those things down they're they're expensive to operate. And we can we can transition our assets to call mean to wind solar and battery storage and save money and make our investors a greater profit in the long run. So what do you think about this?
00:54:13.409 --> 00:54:19.380
What's kind of funny there's the banner ads and stuff are from Exxon Mobil that article that your show
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I know that it's a little ironic run the writers website here.
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