Aug. 18, 2023
Clean Power Hour LIVE | August 17, 2023 | Speeding the Energy Transition
Please take our listener survey. Stay up to date with the latest solar, wind, and energy storage news and analysis. Join co-hosts Tim Montague, solar & storage expert, and John Weaver, PV Magazine journalist, as they reflect on the latest tools, technologies, and trends driving the energy transition forward. With a strong commitment to decarbonizing the economy and building a safer, healthier future for humanity, this show is a must-watch for any energy professional looking to stay ahead...
Please take our listener survey.
Stay up to date with the latest solar, wind, and energy storage news and analysis. Join co-hosts Tim Montague, solar & storage expert, and John Weaver, PV Magazine journalist, as they reflect on the latest tools, technologies, and trends driving the energy transition forward. With a strong commitment to decarbonizing the economy and building a safer, healthier future for humanity, this show is a must-watch for any energy professional looking to stay ahead of the game. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, rate and review us on Apple or Spotify, and join us live every Thursday at 12 noon EST / 9 AM Pacific. Contact us at tim@cleanpowerhour.com or visit www.CleanPowerHour.com to learn more.
This week John Weaver and I discuss :
1. Energy Vault completes 25 MW project in China
2. Limitless ocean-based solar power near the equator due to flat oceans - for instance - Indonesia could generate ~35,000 TWh/yr via floating solar = current global electricity generation
Energy Storage leaders join us for Creating Cost-Competitive Energy Storage Systems - Aug 24, 10 AM Central.
https://events.reutersevents.com/renenwables/cost-competitivesystems?utm_source=clean%20power%20hour%20social%20post%20wb2
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The Clean Power Hour is produced by the Clean Power Consulting Group and created by Tim Montague. Please subscribe on your favorite audio platform and on Youtube: bit.ly/cph-sub | www.CleanPowerHour.com | contact us by email: CleanPowerHour@gmail.com | Speeding the energy transition!
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Welcome to the Clean Power Hour live. I'm Tim Montague, your host today is August 17 2023. Check out all of our content at Clean Power hour.com. You know, we're speeding the energy transition every week, week in week out with pre recorded interviews with this Thursday live. And it would be tremendous. If you could do two things, go to clean power hour.com. Go to the About Us tab, take the listener survey, we really want to hear from you, our listeners, because otherwise we're flying blind.
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John and I are full of great ideas. And we have our passions and interests and we bring them to you every week. But we really want to know what your passions and interests are, and where you're from and where you work and what you do. So please take the listener survey at Clean Power hour.com. The other thing that we would love for you to do is tell a friend about the show.
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We do this every week, twice a week, and we want more listeners to know about the Clean Power Hour because we think it's an awesome opportunity to learn about energy storage and solar and wind and everything energy transition. So with that, I will welcome my co host and the commercial solar guy to the show. Welcome John.
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Timothy, I hope everything is going well with you. I I have a thing I'd like to bring up though. Okay, lay it on, man. I think the energy vault brick company is absolute crap.
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Okay. And well, I had a wonderful conversation with them at ACP.
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Oh man, and not listening. I get beat. I
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love it that we have a yin and yang going on here. Because I do think that there's a there there. But they had clearly you know, when I spent time in their booth in New Orleans a few months ago, they clearly had pivoted away from purely word building these brick towers to store energy with gravity and cranes. They were busy building a facility which is in the news now, I think in China that we're going to talk about here. But they clearly pivoted to a whole array of technologies. They were doing hydrogen projects, they were doing lithium ion storage projects. And so you may be right, but they're doing real things. But why do you think they're crap?
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I everybody that I know that smart has been doing the math and thinks that the, the rocks, picking up and putting down bricks is a terrible idea. And never had a chance. And so my emotion is that from day one, they knew that this had a very low probability. And they were just some really smart savvy business people who wanted to run a spec and raise a few 100 million.
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And, and they knew that they were going to pivot away from it. And I don't know if that's true, because I don't work there. But it definitely smells like it. And, and they immediately pivoted, and I think they just took the cash for running this spec and use it to do batteries. And I think that was the goal.
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Well, I guess only time will tell. Right. And we now have on screen the article from PV magazine from just almost two weeks ago now. Ryan Kennedy wrote a story energy vault completes 25 megawatt 100 megawatt hour gravity based storage tower in China. And so while it's not a brick tower, it's a Rubik's cube of bricks.
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Right? It's just a, it's a big elevator complex is my understanding. I don't know what what is your understanding of what this is?
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Yeah. And it changed before they had, you know, big cranes. And everybody that talks about crane said that's the most terrible idea in the world rising and lowering bricks on cranes, and now they're building an even more complex structure and moving bricks inside of it.
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Well, at least it's inside the structure, though. So it's less exposed to the elements. I think that was one of the concerns with bricks out there, just you know, building this Lego brick tower, basically, how, you know, the wind might cause the cranes problems, it might be weather dependent on whether they could go up or down and when you're inside a structure with looks like they're gonna put cladding on that building, then, you know, it's protected from the elements and you still got gravity you still just, you know, it's just a much more controlled environment.
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Yeah, true. still seems like a bad idea. I don't know crap about anything, though.
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Well, I mean, I, yeah. He's curious. I don't know who's who's funding this project.
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But China is China Governor, listen, from an experimentation standpoint, it needs to be done. And if anybody's going to do it China, China does experiments, big time ones do us doesn't to your little bit less for the experiment said, but you know, this is a great experiment, do the experiment, release the numbers, show us the math afterwards. So we can at least be like, alright, that's cool.
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See the math, but they should build it without a doubt. You know, it's a, it's important.
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Yeah, and go for it.
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I just don't believe they ever thought it was real.
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Yeah, here's a photo now. This is now on screen. An earlier article from a year ago that Emiliano Bellini wrote in PV magazine showing the the classical tower and nicely a big solar array and a wind farm around the tower. So use renewable energy, right, or clean green electricity to power, the gravity battery. So when you have access wind and solar, you grow the tower. When you have knights fall or no wind, you shrink the tower. And it's pretty nice pairing. I mean, of course, you can pair it with a lithium ion battery, you can pair it with an iron flow battery. These are things that we talk about regularly here on the show, and I'm about to do a webinar on August 24. With Reuters. If you just go to my LinkedIn profile, you can see a post about that event. And that is going to be with Duke Energy Company called Grid store, which is an energy developer, and ESS which is an iron flow battery technology company. Talking about utility scale storage, creating cost effective systems.
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So please check that out and join us August 24. For a live webinar. It's free. You just have to pre register. And I think if you just Google Reuters events, energy storage North America, you'll find that event and that's a prequel to energy storage North America, which is a conference in November, November 7 and eighth in Houston. So check that out.
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Speaking of conferences, John, we're getting ready for Ari plus. Do you have your ticket yet? Oh, yeah. Got all that. So I got an amazing deal on an Airbnb. I just couldn't believe how affordable Airbnb apartments are near the strip. So excited to go to Vegas, we're going to Vegas, September 11 to 14th I arrive on the 10th. And guess what, John? I'm gonna have a booth. Oh, sweet. Shout out to our sponsor, Dino watts, check out Dena watts, performance monitoring and analytics company, software as a service.
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If you're not getting the most out of your performance analytics on your solar array, check out Dena watts, but they are not able to use their booth.
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So it's the takeover. And the Clean Power Hour is going to be doing live pre interviews. We may do like a really long live stream from the booth. If the internet is good enough, it's TBD. But we're going to have a booth that already plus So come visit us hang out. Get a baseball cap. And let's geek out on energy storage.
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That's cool. That's cool. Good job at that. Thank you, Dana watts. Appreciate well, you couldn't use your booth. So nevermind. But thanks anyway.
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Ya know, their gift gifting us this booth. So it's, it's a big deal. And we're super grateful to Dan Leary, and company for doing that. But what else is in the news that's got you pumped up today, John,
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here's all kinds of cool stuff. Here. Let's look at a beautiful building the project of the week from Onyx. I would love one day to build an onyx project and really see their financial models. I've seen some on their website, they do have a financial model somewhere that shows the return on investment of their product is under like four years, but it accounts for the building needing new windows. So I you know that knowing the nuance of the math, what it really means because your out of pocket is going to be you know, whatever it is, then you have to somehow calculate what the solar project might cost versus a standard window. And so, you know, you got to really understand that to be able to pitch it properly.
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And first off, I don't know anything about doing windows. I just know residential windows in my brother's historical house are very expensive. And you can't even do standard historical house windows. So it's,
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you know, you know, from the outside this looks wonderful. I wonder what the experience is on the inside looking out. Can you still see through the glass or is it mostly ups weird question.
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I don't know, I assume though these are opaque.
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I'm assuming this is I
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mean, let's let's face it, the solar cells that are embedded in these opaque windows? Are they? Are they crystallin technology? Are they?
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Are they something else?
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Depends on their product. Some of them are amorphous silicon, some of them are crystallin. Okay. And this product is in the 16% 17 efficiency rate.
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Right. But that's pretty high still. Yeah, more than
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more than usable, quite decent, you know, you know, the, the total production is going to be, you know, 80% 70% of what it would have been because it's vertical. And then you know, the efficiency is 16 versus say, 20. But they're using the building facade, and prior the building facade was zero. And so, you know, they great, homerun, I love it, I want to know how to do it. The only negative with this product, and I say it every single time, is that we do building upgrades a little slower than we can deploy new facilities. But, you know, it's everything adds up, everything matters. And if future buildings had these facades, integrated, man, that would be so sweet.
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Yeah, I'm gonna share this. This is the Onyx website, we would love to have Onyx on the show. Sometimes here if you're connected to onyx, or you work for onyx, please reach out to us, Tim at clean power.
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hour.com is my email. I'm easy to find on LinkedIn as his John.
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But so you see this? You see in the Onyx website?
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Oh, yeah, that's a that's I believe that. I don't know where that system is. They have a gorgeous one that they did in Pennsylvania, what this old facility and it's just beautiful.
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This is an atrium, you know, inside an office building. And, you know, what normally would have just been a glass ceiling is now a PV glass ceiling. So that gives you some, I think somewhat of the experience of what it's like to look out from inside though, with these Onyx panels.
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Obviously, they can make them any colour on the outside. It just what is the user's experience from the inside? I think this gives us a sense of that, though, don't you?
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Yeah. Yeah. And that's just cool with bifacial product these days. And it's really neat that that exists.
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And you know, they're able to use it. Yeah, just such a wonderful project. Look at that.
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And, you know, keeps it cool.
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It's, you know, it's generating electricity, you know, having solar cells, they're lit keeps it cooler itself, because 20% of that electricity is turning into something else, you know, hear somebody who said it perfectly.
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That's it. That's the building, that's the rooftop.
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You know, I would love to hear from our listeners about what VIP V building integrated photovoltaic projects are you seeing, experiencing learning about, because that part of the stuff part of the industry is one that's very nascent here in North America.
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It's further along in in Asia and Europe, I think, especially in Europe, but we just don't see it that much here in North America. But but if you know of a project, a real project, please send it along, we would love to talk about it on the show. If you're a project developer, if you're a project owner, whatever your connection or an OEM making bi PV products, please reach out to us we love bi PV. It truly is a free future of solar.
00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.620
So check out this link that I just put underneath.
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And it's a new structure that popped up in my LinkedIn field, this power shingle group building of theirs, that they put out to the world. And it's really gorgeous.
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Power shingle power shingle
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your name. First off, you know, you can see the little building in the background. So let's see if that gets you a nice picture on the front art. All right, so it's just it's a industrial structure. And then another one keep going. Let's see if they have some better images. They have a great video somewhere.
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Yeah, man. They so they have a video. Yeah. What's it let's do that one. It played that video.
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It's Oh, this is the new core technology.
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New core. Do you know who this is?
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New core is a steel building company
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that the music is loud. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Oh, there
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we go. Now we can meet that. Um, I don't know how to expand the video but but Um, you know the problem, John, these guys at new core are in bed with that company in Silicon Valley that caused the whole fiasco, the banking thing. They make solar modules, they're a lesser known player.
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Oh, are these guys associated? oxen? oxen?
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Correct. Nucor and oxen have done a deal. So new cores using oxen solar panels as as that's the best of my knowledge anyway, because I actually have a new core facility here in central Illinois, where a friend works at a steel factory. And,
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and how's it look?
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And is it one of these? Is it a new core solar plus?
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No, it's just a regular, it's just a regular factory. And I was I was, you know, trying to tell them, hey, you should solarize your factory. And they're like, well, guess what, we have our own solar technology. And, you know, this, this is really for structures like you see in the video. These very large outdoor, they're a form of a carport.
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Really, right.
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They're more than a carport. I mean, this is a, this is a structure called
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a shed. I don't know, what do you call that?
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It's not sealed on the inside. But I have seen other versions of this that have walls. I haven't seen the end sealed yet though. I'm sure that would up the volume of permitting that's required without a doubt. But this is it's more than a shed. It's not a closed out building, though.
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So you're right. So it's not like it is bi PV. But it's not, you know, office bi PV it's it's commercial constructional bi PV.
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And this is cool.
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We can we can make all the videos play at once. But yeah, this this power shingle is
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good stuff. We thought it was cool. And it complements our VIP V conversation.
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They just need to get a better technology partner.
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Yeah. Hey, listen, if oxen can actually build a module and get it out to the market, wonderful. At least they exist. I'm never going to buy it. So we'll see how it goes.
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Yeah, this is uh, this is sweet. How you have they're showing the construction.
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Yep. So. So I like this. This is parallel to be IPv. And it's neat. So there we go. That's my, that's our VIP stories of the week. So can we talk about the Tesla semi? We've got some neat little videos that
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Pettis, the Tesla semi real is there. They're there. I don't
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click on it. We got some images. I got some stats, and Pepsi's talking about it.
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And so I, you know, I think it's something it's definitely useful in its position, what it's doing what they're using it for. So the so the article, some of the things I grabbed for it. The Tesla semis are mostly used for deliveries that are less than 100 miles, they operate 12 hours a day, they have several stops.
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They do have three units that only do long routes between 250 and 450 miles. And the unit I believe can hypothetically do 500 miles. The 750 Kw mega chargers, which apparently were a massive headache to instal can charge 80% of the capacity in 45 minutes. Which, you know, what's much so slower than filling up with gas, but if it's able to charge while the unit is being loaded? Yeah. Then hey, who cares?
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I mean, and, and obviously, the the trailers are separate than the cab. And so yeah, you know, you just need a big fleet and in you rotate them out. And, you know, fast charging is pretty, pretty darn good. 750 Kw charger, that is a lot of juice. And it makes sense because it's a what is the kilowatt hours of the battery?
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Do you know? Oh, that's a couple 100 probably right.
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Yeah, kWh Tesla.
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So this is a story in electric. We're grateful for electronics work. Lots of good info about EVs and electrification of transportation. And this story by Fred Lambert, August 4 had 295 comments, very popular story.
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So somebody did some rough math and they said if it has a driving capacity of or if it has a capacity of 500 miles, and the Pepsi people can get it consistently to 1.7 kWh.
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That equals roughly an 850 kWh battery. Yeah.
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So somewhere in that window, so approaching a megawatt hour,
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processing a megawatt hour in a battery now Um, what's the name? Fred says that he sees it as a roughly 900 kilowatt hour battery. So in a different article when I just did a quick search so, so somewhere in that range, maybe maybe 750 to 900. That's, that's a big old battery man. So I just I thought the stats were neat, you know, the fact that they're using their, their, you know, they got their fleet of 21 units, they're being used a whole bunch. They charge them off peak. Oh, and one little data point, roughly 23% fuel cost reduction versus
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Diesel, what percent
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23? What they estimated based on the numbers, that's pretty significant. Yeah.
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And considering the fact that the OEM on this unit is probably going to be a lot less
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and so does he say how quickly the unit is going to pay for itself?
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Ah, no, nothing.
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Nothing like that was mentioned.
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I mean, ultimately, that is what's going to drive the transition, right?
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Today, a fraction of of new car sales and new truck sales are EVs, pure EVs, in five years, though, they're all right. And it's because of these economics, where it's just gonna be more affordable to own and operate an Eevee whether it's a truck or a car, and everyone pours in.
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Money matters. That's what really matters. People don't care so much about the environment. Unfortunately, some of us do. I'm sure that people sweating through the heatwave in Texas, and Arizona this summer are beginning to care. Luckily, we we've been buffered from that. And yeah, I mean, of course you and I do and that's what I love about the energy transition. So many professionals that work in wind, energy storage and solar, care about the environment and the future, a safer, healthier future for humanity. That's my mantra. That's what we're creating by completing the energy transition. You know, I had a very interesting conversation with Peter for kowski. I've talked about him a couple times. Check it out Peter for kowski.com. The book is called Climate restoration.
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We'll be dropping an interview, gosh, imminent with Peter. But the energy transition John is the easy part. Right.
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decarbonizing the economy is only 40 gigatons, right? Well, there's a trillion tonnes of co2 equivalent pollution in the atmosphere. That's the hard part. And Peter thinks that throwing iron dust in the ocean strangely enough is the answer, which which causes blossoms of algae, these little diatoms creatures that absorb co2 and build shells, and then the shell sinks to the ocean floor and stays down there for 1000s of years. It's a real thing.
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Apparently, when Mount Pinatubo this is a, this is a great fact for the day when Mount Pinatubo exploded in the 90s, it levelled co2 rise in the on the globe, right? Because it put up all this dust in the atmosphere that then fell on the ocean and fertilise the ocean. So there was a bloom of blossom, a massive blossom of algae in the ocean because of Mount Pinatubo.
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So that was nature's experiment demonstrating that technology.
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So now there's more of those experiments being done pilot scale. And the the really interesting fact from Peters work is that it only takes a billion to $2 billion of investment a year to to make these fixes. The iron fertilisation, ocean iron fertilisation, oh, I F is the acronym. And then the other one that he's very fond of. He has four solutions, but he's just really drilled down now on to the other one is growing.
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Seaweed, seaweed permaculture, which we use in all kinds of products like ice cream, etc.
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It's a thickener and a nutrient it's a fertiliser. But
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well, I've heard about this iron idea. And it you know, I think we should try it.
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We should definitely experiment with it. We definitely push on it. Just like we should push on SMRs just like we should push on the energy vault. We should at least test and go for it. You know geoengineering scares me just because human beings were just so dumb. It's the same reason the sequestration scares me makes me nervous because you know what we're doing with fracking. We're causing earthquakes. I mean, we're, we're, we're messing with the structure of the planet. Yes, it's a trivial tiny little amount compared to the size of the Earth. But we're causing earthquakes now. We want to be Push 1000 times a million times a billion times more product under the ground than we're doing already. And if we start doing that, are we going to cause a billion times more earthquakes? Right? So there's only Yeah, we
00:25:15.778 --> 00:26:07.019
have to be very careful about geoengineering solutions. But by the same token, that is what fossil fuels are, right? Our usage of fossil fuels is a form of geoengineering, we're taking carbon out of the ground and pumping it into the atmosphere, which is causing runaway global warming. And, you know, that's, that's some serious stuff, right? Ocean acidification, ocean level rise, increased storms, droughts, fires, floods, holy moly. So we have to do something, right. And Peter, for kowski, went through all the potential solutions, and identified those that are scalable, affordable, and long lasting. Those were the criteria. And direct air capture is on his list in the book, but he's taking it off the list.
00:26:03.749 --> 00:26:27.598
Now, direct air capture of carbon, so you can, you can make a machine that captures carbon and turns it into limestone, which can be used as building material, and putting concrete, etc, right. But he's taken that off, because it's too expensive.
00:26:22.288 --> 00:26:46.709
So it's all about the ocean, you know, the ocean cover 70% of the Earth, as we know, but we forget, we think, oh, there's just land everywhere, unless you live on the coast, which I don't, and 70%. That's a big, big surface area. So we'll see your experiments to come
00:26:47.068 --> 00:27:00.628
and more experiments. And you're right, though, that's a really good point. We're already experimenting with climate change with what we're doing so but do we trust us to do another experiment? I guess?
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:14.039
I mean, it is an emergency. It's it. We're in a climate emergency. We are. And without a doubt without so radical action is necessary.
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:25.980
There's there's a good story here, though, that you found on the health benefits when we move away from fossil fuels. And I'm gonna put this on screen. What's the story John?
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:31.200
Let's shut down a fossil facility.
00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:35.940
A coke plant. A coke plant? Yes. Sorry, what is the coke used for?
00:27:36.779 --> 00:28:19.259
So you well, is this a? Is this for steel coking? Probably? Yeah. I mean, so what's what would you I believe, generally, what you use coke for is that you, you bake the coal at really high temperatures. So and mix it in with steel with iron. And during that process, the coal which is literally sea combines with the oxygen that's in the steel, the iron oxide and the oxide and the coal combined to form co2 And then float away.
00:28:19.558 --> 00:28:27.148
Yeah. And to and and the carbon does get embedded also in the steel, I think which makes it what it is some
00:28:27.150 --> 00:28:31.980
of the some of the carbon Yeah, you know, but it's got to be Yeah, so the co2 portion, we
00:28:31.980 --> 00:29:10.109
have to remember we have to we have to let our listeners who are on audio know what we're talking about. This is a story in a in a in a website called the Allegheny front. Yes, and the shunning that, well, the title is ER visits plummet after Shenango Koch works on Neville Island is closed and this is in the Pittsburgh area. You know, Pittsburgh is famous for being a rust belt, you know, heavy industry. City. And so this is what Pittsburgh used to look like. It's now kind of turned the corner and it's it's greatly reinvigorated. But
00:29:11.190 --> 00:29:51.089
so I mean, 90% drop in Sulphur pollution lead to a 42% drop in emergency room visits for cardiovascular disease. And it's and this just tells us when anybody ever says coal and gas are cheap, they're liars. Right? Because you're paying for it. You know, you're paying for it with your lungs, you're paying for it with your ability to walk, breathe, go upstairs, live, get oxygen to your brain. You're paying for it. Your kids are paying for it.
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.940
Energy is cheap, but health is expensive. Is my saying.
00:29:58.318 --> 00:30:19.499
And so I just thought it was cool. To remind us all that shutting down coal plants shut down gas, shut down coke plants, burning this stuff shifting. Like, for instance, now steel is being made with pure electricity instead of coal, this shift this transition is going to save human lives.
00:30:20.969 --> 00:30:48.479
And and it's gonna make us healthier, maybe smarter. I mean, there's this chart out there that shows lead poisoning and and it's just massive the amount of lead poisoning the whole world got when we're using this form of gasoline from 100 years ago that this one dude, may this one dudes probably the worst person ever on earth. And he made the worst technology ever for our species, maybe that one guy and the whole species was made stupid, or
00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:55.410
do you know why they put leaded gasoline, I don't actually know why it's a lubricant for the pistons.
00:30:56.250 --> 00:31:27.210
So lubricant for the pistons in exchange for a global IQ deficit of like, X number of points. So all the beautiful people that we never met the inventions, we never got the businesses that were never started, because we were all just a little bit dumber. Truly No, where makes me want to fight. So it's I just, you know, I saw this float across, and the stats were just so significant.
00:31:21.690 --> 00:31:48.150
I mean, and it says, After three years, over the last three years, ER visits are down 61% versus original. And, you know, that's just hard data. Here's your lungs being hacked by and your brain and your body being hacked by your energy source.
00:31:41.970 --> 00:32:00.509
Don't ever tell me that. Fossils are cheap than not, you're just not paying attention to the reality of what you're what you're actually getting out of this deal. And this deal is a it's energy, which is fundamentally important. So you know what, we shouldn't have it.
00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:11.759
And we needed it back in the day. However, when I was a child, I played with toys. As I grew to be a man, I put away those toys, something like that is the way the phrase goes.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:20.579
Fossils are toys. For a species that's a child. We're no longer a child. It's time to time to grow up and just recognise this reality.
00:32:20.729 --> 00:32:50.788
You mentioned making steel with pure electricity. We had a company on the show a couple of months ago called Boston metal check out Boston metal, they're a MIT spin off and they're making all kinds of metal, including steel using pure electricity, so it is doable. And then of course you can make it with hydrogen. If it's green hydrogen, then it's clean steel, green steel, so called green steel. I know they're doing this in Sweden. I don't know if there's any green hydrogen steel being made in the US yet but it's coming.
00:32:51.960 --> 00:33:19.529
So LinkedIn user said coking plant what it does to make steel and the blast furnace coal must first be turned into Coke. And so this plant makes the coke so coke has a dual role provides the heat needed to melt the ore and second one is burned has the effect of stealing the oxygen from the iron ore, leaving only pure iron behind in the coking plant coal is heated in the absence of oxygen to 12 150 C that's like set 1517 Fahrenheit.
00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:19.529
Okay,
00:33:19.529 --> 00:33:22.740
so it's a way of D oxidising. The iron Interesting.
00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:24.150
Yeah, it removes
00:33:24.148 --> 00:33:35.669
any impurities in the coal, resulting in coke. And coke helps to remove the impurities from steel. So there we go. All right. All right.
00:33:31.558 --> 00:33:36.298
Back to the news. Tim, back to the news,
00:33:36.328 --> 00:33:41.548
domestic content guidance on solar cells and structural steel. The IRS I wrote
00:33:41.549 --> 00:33:58.019
this yesterday. You did? Actually I've been writing it for like two months because this was a really hard article for me to write. Because I had to listen to all the smart people. I was really nervous writing it. I didn't want to mess up because everybody said it was complex. We just pumped this yesterday because you know, yesterday was Tim
00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:00.089
the anniversary of the IRA.
00:34:01.558 --> 00:34:02.519
Glad you knew that.
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:31.440
I only knew that because I was on a panel for the Aurora conference. And with Paul grana the inventor of Helia scope. Yes, yes. And we had a lively discussion about the IRA and its impacts on especially CNI solar installers. But so your story domestic content guidance on solar cells and structural steel by John Fitzgerald Weaver on August 16.
00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:33.389
In PV magazine, what's the story?
00:34:34.168 --> 00:35:26.429
It just tries to delve into some of the details about it. So the first high level detail all your steel and iron, your metals, your big metals and the big components that are part of structural meaning your racking, all of that must be us worked, so we can we can mine it somewhere else. And we can do something called early metallurgical, something or other somewhere else but in the EU, but then it has to come here. It has to be rolled it has to be put out here. SB fully worked in the United States. So that's all you're racking, the mixed up and challenging piece. So comes into this 40% manufactured product, chunk, and 40% manufactured products, it's a tough equation to make, because like, for instance, one nuance, let's say you have a piece of hardware an inverter, and you make it you assemble it in the United States, and you make some components in the United States.
00:35:26.818 --> 00:38:26.159
But some of the components are elsewhere. Well, the IRA will say, Listen, if any one component of this unit is made in another country, you cannot account for the labour that went into assembling the unit as part of the 40%. But if all the components are made in the US than the labour does account, but if your inverters are 99% components in the US all those components account, so it's a little complex. You know, they talk about the different pieces, which are manufactured, non manufactured, then there's questions about, you know, with the solar cell. So here's the big, you know, the big gorilla in the room is your solar panel, your panel is going to cost, you know, 30 to 70 cents, 60 cents, depending on how you're buying it. And this panel will be made with glass, aluminium, a junction box, a back sheet, there's about six or seven items that the IRS pays attention to, including the solar cell, their solar cell, if it's made in the USA, means that a whole bunch of the other components in the packet in the panel have a chance to qualify. But if the solar cell is not made in the USA, essentially that panels is going to be useless from a mate domestic content. So the question that's question then becomes is Can your solar project get to a 40% manufacturer content without the solar cell without the solar panel? And that's a real interesting question. inverters, they can move it along. Goldman Sachs purchase an inverter company, right as the IRA was signed, my hypothesis was that Goldman Sachs saw a play to offer pathways to 40%, outside of the solar module, and that inverter was a strategic play for utility scale. I liked that thing that you have highlighted there. I will I'll get back to that. Roth capital suggested that show so show makes wire harnesses and Roth capital covers show is there a public company, but Roth capital suggested that show doesn't it shows with an S shows? Yeah, probably thank you. So said that shows might be a good play, because there are another component that could help pull you up. So if you start doing things like your your, your racking, maybe not too racking, it's structural, but your wires, your wire harnesses, your copper, your inverter, your switch gear, your your small transformer, but not the utility own transformer, your step up transformer, pardon me, you know, if all those items add up, and maybe the fence, I haven't gotten confirmation on the fence, I need to talk to some smart people. But maybe the fence can count toward it. So.
00:38:26.668 --> 00:38:48.599
So the question is, where can these other components? Can they add up? Can they mean something and turn into it? This chart right here came from a law firm, they posted it on LinkedIn, and it tries to chop up all these different pieces, and show you know, some of the complexity of this document, for instance, is it made in the USA? Yes or No?
00:38:44.938 --> 00:38:58.559
If no, then don't account for it? Is the whole thing made in the USA? Yes or No? If yes, then account for the labour, if only pieces of it are made in the USA don't account for the labour.
00:38:55.228 --> 00:39:34.498
And so it's just different documents going through it Chris and Roselyn gentleman who I'm good friends with who used to work at PV magazine, he also wrote an analysis from CEA. So if you need, you know, there's a lot of good resources out there, they're going to help to determine if these pounds if these products are 40%. You know, there's another question who, how are we going to verify that the products are 40%? And does that mean that the manufacturers are going to have to share their profit margins?
00:39:34.918 --> 00:40:58.708
Because if they tell you what it costs, and then they say, you know, we are X percent of this cost, and then you know, what they're paying us or what you're paying because you bought it from him. You know, the cost, he knows the purchase price, suddenly, you know, the profit margin of the product. Everybody loves to negotiate. Oh, you make 17% margins. I'll pay you 15% You know, yeah, I can afford See a third party verification system. So many developing a website where nobody gets to see the document of subcomponent costs other than the manufacturer. And it just shows a high level number with some accountants and lawyers standing back at behind it with insurance. That's something that could work. If you're a large scale buyer, big time player, you have enough, you know, influence to be like, Listen, I'm either gonna buy a gigawatt of racking from you, or gigawatt hour racking from the, if you don't give me the PDF, they will. And that'd be the end of that discussion. But for small fries, like me, who's gonna give me their breakdown? You know, different lots of little nuances here to consider. This is a document to do that. And that one chunk you were highlighting, so it's 40%, manufactured in 2024, Tim, and then in 2025, what's it go up to 50? And then 26. And thereafter, it's 55%.
00:40:52.349 --> 00:41:17.219
Right? So expect that more gear will come to the US? Samsung, no, somebody just made an announcement yesterday, Siemens, somebody said that they're moving inverter manufacturing back to the United States in Wisconsin. Oh, so. So that's gonna be another path. We're gonna have domestic content in the US. So yeah,
00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:28.199
I mean, there's been a slew of announcements Maxie on announced the solar plant, solar panel factory in New Mexico. Three gigs, yeah.
00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:32.550
Doing one down North sun. Oh, your friend Tim.
00:41:32.909 --> 00:41:40.110
Write the article. Right now North sun made a five gigawatt solar wafer announcement.
00:41:36.570 --> 00:41:40.110
They're exploring a facility.
00:41:41.190 --> 00:41:50.699
And this is news that nobody else has heard officially. So Tim right now hot off the presses. Meyer burger is closely aligned with their actions.
00:41:47.909 --> 00:42:06.960
While there is no official announcement. I did get an email direct from the big boss himself, Gunther. And he said, I asked him a couple questions how closely they aligned with this NorSon deal. And they said, We're, we're talking. We, you know, we already work together.
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:36.210
You know, there's no official announcements, what we're planning on it. And then I asked specifically, is there a chance that Meyer burger will announce five gigawatts of capacity in total, that would potentially align with this? And it was suggested, and we'll see it next week in the article. It was suggested Yes. That that was in fact the case that they they do have that potential to announce that type of capacity with their current facilities, I think with the current facility, so
00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:57.690
if you don't know NorSon is a wafer and ingot company, right? Yes. silicon, Inger ingots and wafers from Norway. I think they're a member of the ultra low carbon solar lines also. Absolutely. Yes, they are. Because they're making these wafers with hydropower, presumably, in Norway, right?
00:42:57.690 --> 00:43:03.300
Carbon, low carbon energy. Lots of I mean, the Norwegian grid is like 90%. carbon free.
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:11.460
It's awesome. Those are the cleanest solar cells on Earth, I would guess. Or solar wafers. Among Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:16.230
So yeah. So so your people are coming. Your people are coming more of you.
00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:21.989
So but you're suggesting that NorSon is looking at building a factory?
00:43:22.679 --> 00:44:08.969
Yes. No, not suggesting let me refer NorSon has explicitly stated Okay, have raised money to begin the exploration of building a facility to do five gigs of wafers. The press release, which came out yesterday, the press release says they're, they hope to make the official facility announcement by the end of the year. And right now they're working on finance and securing sales agreements. Securing sales agreement sounds a whole lot like they're talking to Meyer burger, who themselves are now at two gigawatts of capacity and seeking another x volume of capacity. I don't know how much but x volume and that x volume is hopefully three gigs more.
00:44:09.570 --> 00:44:24.119
We'll see what pops out. Um, you know, pie in the sky guy. I want NorSon and Meyer burger to make wonderful products. So we know that we we know, we know that Meyer burger is going to announce additional capacity beyond their current two gigs.
00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:28.170
We don't know. We know, though.
00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:58.230
And I have a feeling I don't have a feeling I have semi confirmation that it's going to be with these folks. I have absolute conversation that the conversations are aligned and that these two groups are talking so so there's going to be a North sun. There's a high probability of a North Sun Marburger announcement, wafer sales to Meyer burger, US based and then though, going back to domestic content, technically, Marburger doesn't need to buy wafers in the United States to sell a domestic content product.
00:44:58.679 --> 00:47:08.070
So You know, the logic here is that the wafers might be a good economic incentive in the United States to do. And that being they're gonna get, you know, the IRA wafer incentive, let's see, I can't remember what it is $12 per square, let's see to eat per watt for wafers, so $12 per square metre, for photovoltaic wafers. So a square metre is half a solar panel, half a solar panel is say 300 Watts 1200 12 bucks divided by 300. That's about four cents a watt. So four cents a watt incentive for making wafers is roughly what NorSon might get for manufacturing in the United States. That's pretty cool. It's good number. Because if we go to like, info Infotech, they would tell us that the price per watt of wafers is in China is probably real close to four cents. In fully consulting, let's see what their last last announcement. So we got cells, so we got wafers here at Let's see, US wafers dollars, 52 cents for a for a single wafer. And if a single wafer, let's say they're 72, and a 600 watt module divided by 72. So we're saying eight watts per wafer, and it's 52 cents for a wafer, that's six and a half cents for a wafer. So if somebody's getting incentive for four cents, on a product that costs six and a half, and China probably costs 10 cents here, maybe it costs 12. If it costs 12, if it costs 10 and a half cents, then maybe the wafer which would cost six and a half and China cost, like it's equal, if it's four cents, I don't know. So at 10 and a half cents to manufacture a wafer in the United States, with a four cent incentive, it's equal to the cost in China. We'll see, I don't know what their costs will be. Maybe we can ask them.
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:23.880
So one of my takeaways, though, from your story is that if you use wafers from overseas, but make the cell in the US that that would probably make your solar panel qualify for this domestic content.
00:47:24.268 --> 00:47:47.278
Yeah, because the key thing with the domestic content is that they look one level back for components they don't like so if your component is made up of a million things from around the Earth, but you made that component in the United States, perfect that counts. So you know, the wafer is a sub components of the cell.
00:47:42.449 --> 00:48:16.438
The cell is one layer back from the final product. And so yeah, so wafers, not necessarily you could buy it globally. Meyer Berger has stated explicitly that they do buy from around the world they buy from North sun, I think North sun only manufactures one gigawatt of capacity. Not only they manufacture one gigawatt, they're seeking to expand the three. And in Europe. Marburger buys direct from them. So pretty cool. Pretty cool. North sun's coming with a five gig plant.
00:48:13.409 --> 00:48:16.438
That's a big way for plant man.
00:48:16.648 --> 00:48:19.588
That might be one of the that's the realest of the wafer.
00:48:20.398 --> 00:48:45.059
Offerings other than QCL that I remember. There's another way for one now, I think this might be the realest of the wafers, because cubic PV, they're pretty awesome. They announced a 10 gigawatt wafer facility. But they're young they haven't delivered any facilities nor Sun hats. So right you know, Q Cell I trust because q cells Han Han was a global conglomerate, they make the machines that make the cells so q cells awesome.
00:48:45.088 --> 00:49:08.579
They're going to deliver North sun is going to be able to deliver if they decide to make the move if they get the contract. So so that's my next pitch. Tim, can we call every solar panel assembly every solar cell company and be like, hey, you know, call North sun, make sure North sun gets some deals for five gigs. We gotta we gotta get ourselves a let's let's do some cold calling Tim. I think we just got to call Gunther and be like, hey, sign that deal.
00:49:10.619 --> 00:49:41.760
So you've heard a story about putting solar flat on the ocean, which made me think of a interview that I did just a couple of days ago with Jim Tyler. So I'm gonna put the the earth those video. So this is a preview of what's coming on the Clean Power Hour. August 29, I believe is the drop date for my interview with Jim Tyler of Earth those and we've talked about Earth those as early as couple years ago. Right now they're going mainstream, building some real power plants.
00:49:42.420 --> 00:50:34.019
They've signed a deal for 100 megawatt plant in Texas. And they and they built several small utility scale plants. And one of the coolest things that I learned though, about Earth though, so I was very sceptical I have to say, there you see a great shot. And it's solar panels flat on the ground, literally the frame is going on the dirt. And then they run a cable through the modules, both directions. And so it's effectively a solar skin. It's all connected to it. So it can't, you know, blow away, so to speak, and then it's got a curb around it to, you know, prevent moisture from just rolling over the array, although the array can be submerged. And that was the other thing, I learned two things you can submerge the solar array, okay?
00:50:29.579 --> 00:52:06.570
It will withstand periods of submersion. And the panels are going to experience less degradation from mechanical stress, because they're just laying flat on the ground when you put panels on racks or on trackers on fixed tilt or on trackers, they're up there. And let's face it, they're getting buffeted by the wind, right. And that causes microcracking. And that accelerates degradation of the modules. And that doesn't happen nearly as much when you put the solar panels flat on the ground. So I'm becoming a fan of Earth dose I'm, I'm a true believer now after several discussions with Jim Taylor, who's an OG Okay, he was the VP of EPC at for solar. And then he was co founder of DEP comm one of the largest utility scale EPCs in the country. So and his whole team are all OGS in the solar industry. So a lot of brainpower there. And disrupting solar is 35 tonnes. This is a this is a wonderful statistic, John 35 tonnes of less steel per megawatt of solar compared to traditional ground mount. Wow, that's a lot of carbon savings, a lot of energy savings that Earth house is bringing. So let me put this other story on screen now. The title is limitless energy how offshore floating solar could power the world. I believe the ocean is vast.
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:16.829
A quick question has earthtones given you any installed cost numbers I've heard set like 60 cents a watt 70 cents a watt.
00:52:16.949 --> 00:52:28.889
All I know is the LC OE is 20% less than tracker solar interest. So it is it is a compelling financial case. Yeah.
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:30.150
And interest
00:52:30.239 --> 00:53:08.610
really interested in it works better South Earth those declined giving us a bid for a project in upstate New York. Only for one reason, though. And they said this is something they're working on the robot that they had, at the time, had no heavy snow experience. And they weren't sure, because a key portion of the Earth was presentation. This is key for anybody who wants to buy their product. The key portion of the Earth's presentation is that they offer you a power. They all guarantee a certain amount of product product. If and with that they also have an O and M contract.
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:28.110
That Oh nm contract includes a robot. And that robot constantly cleans your panels. And it just goes out there scrubs, scrubs, scrubs. And so every day you have like perfectly clean solar panels and an F because they got a little robot integrated. So there's some there's some nuance to this earth Oh, product.
00:53:28.139 --> 00:54:13.530
And speaking of that, oh Nm with a robot, you know, the other thing that I've learned is that soiling can cause hotspots if you have bird droppings or dust accumulation on your solar panels that can cause hotspots which will cause accelerated degradation. So cleaning solar panels is actually quite vital if you have build up. And you know, let's face it for flat solar, they're definitely going to have more build up then 30 degree tilt solar. Yeah. And so the robot is vital. But and you know, they'll figure out the snow robot, I think eventually, but yeah, I would say it's mostly for South of south of Illinois. It's still high country.
00:54:14.820 --> 00:54:16.710
I want to talk about decommissioning document.
00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:17.730
I think everybody needs
00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:35.400
to talk about limitless energy offshore floating solar. We can we can talk about it looks great. But is it cost effective is my only question right? It probably is cost effective in what happens when the dolphin jumps on it. Or the killer? Well,
00:54:36.690 --> 00:54:41.789
you know, there's the issue. Those animals are smart. They're not doing it.
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:45.510
It's the dumb ones. It's the tunas. The tuners are the linebackers of the of the ocean.
00:54:45.780 --> 00:55:00.989
They just go at like 80 miles an hour. They're blasting through defensive you know, the great white they're like the defensive end Offensive Tackles. They're scary and smart though like roll right through your dolphins.
00:54:56.309 --> 00:55:04.260
That's though dolphins in And the whales, the killer whales, those are like the quarterbacks.
00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:08.280
And the wide receivers are just more refined creatures. Okay, so So the
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:12.449
blue areas on this map are potentially available for floating solar.
00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:48.150
Yeah, blue areas, wherever the winds are lesser and those dark splotchy areas are high wind events. So if you avoid the high wind events, you can deploy flat. And this is areas where these are called the doldrum areas of sorts, where the ocean is just flatter. And so you don't have to worry about things happening like up in Norway, or the what the Netherlands people are dealing with their floating solar where they're accounting for, like 20 3040 foot swells. The only the major issue with this, of course, is that you can't get the electricity from the source to the rest of the world.
00:55:48.420 --> 00:56:05.070
Because we don't have global power lines. But tin. Imagine if we did have a strip of modules in that little piece that circles the Earth. Right in the middle. Right? We would have the equator another Yes. Thank you, everybody. It's the equator.
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:05.940
Thank you, Timothy.
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:13.139
Yeah, you're talking about the Dyson sphere here on Earth. Yeah. Not on the sun. But on the earth. Imagine having
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:17.579
a Dyson sphere on Earth. HVAC. 24/7. Electricity.
00:56:17.579 --> 00:56:18.809
Yeah, once again,
00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:20.010
it's a total no brainer.
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:45.210
You combine something like that with wind at the upper atmosphere at the upper levels. And, you know, we have so many opportunities with the ocean and deploying, that we could, again, once again, we don't have an issue with generation capacity. We have an issue with moving it around the world, we can power the world and building it fast enough. And Bill enough. Well, there's
00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:49.500
that that's you know, is that is that the last story we're going to talk about?
00:56:47.699 --> 00:56:49.500
No, we
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:51.630
got to do one more got to do one more. It's an easy no. I
00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:55.739
mean, you had a story about interconnection I thought or something right now we're gonna do
00:56:55.739 --> 00:57:09.809
this. We're gonna do decommissioning. I think this is a key a key thing. Go to page eight of this document, if you wouldn't mind. So I want people to see No, not that one. The one above it. This one right here.
00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:16.110
Link County, Washington government make sure we get into that one. Okay. Hey, J, hey, J, hey, J to PDF.
00:57:16.170 --> 00:57:18.179
It's sexy stuff.
00:57:18.869 --> 00:57:21.630
And this is techy.
00:57:18.869 --> 00:57:43.139
This is for this is you know, you don't need to read this if unless you really want to, but the purpose of this document everybody, and those of you can't see it, it's literally just a list. It's a list of all of the costs and tasks that are necessary to decommission a 65 know 62 and a half megawatt ground mount solar power plants.
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.400
And it breaks down everything.
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:53.340
And it's from NextEra. And these people know how to do everything. So you know, they're my favourite company, they hate.
00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:59.610
And they have the best. I mean, they just have awesome documents, the best plants, they break the best laws to their, you know, 100% energy company,
00:58:00.449 --> 00:58:02.670
largest solar developer in the United States,
00:58:02.969 --> 00:58:44.730
amongst the largest honours to. And so this is a decommissioning plan, I found that there's, that's an Iowa document package. You know, page eight has a whole bunch of lists, Page nine has a whole bunch, page 10 has a whole bunch at the bottom of or in the middle of page 10. There's a great document as well, it shows the salvage value. Now the salvage value in year five is still greater than the cost of decommissioning by like a million bucks, but they're accounting for the fact that they're gonna get 27 cents a watt for their modules. And those are young modules. So it's really it's carried heavily, you can tell when you look at that number, they got that big fat number right there in the middle, for the PV modules each on 27 bucks.
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:46.050
$3.7 million.
00:58:47.190 --> 00:59:07.170
Yes, sorry, not 27 cents. Here, let me do the price. So 27 watts divided by 620 $600.04 and a half cents a watt. Actually, that's not a bad price. Four and a half cents a watt for the cost of the module is, is there. So that's, that's a realistic number that you can get. And that's what they think.
00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:19.139
And so So number one is everybody that owns a business that owns a farm. Here's a decommissioning map. Here's what it costs. It's a low price, you know, it's 3.1 million bucks.
00:59:19.139 --> 00:59:41.429
Let me tell you something, this is 60. We're going to 3.1 million 123 divided by 62,500,000 Watts 4.9 cents a watt, five cents a watt to decommission a massive solar power project. And it pays for itself, right and here's a map and here's a map to do it.
00:59:38.670 --> 00:59:48.659
Everybody. This this document can tell you make you trust that solar can be removed. So that's what I wanted to show everybody.
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.929
Let him go chew on that for the day.
00:59:50.429 --> 01:00:02.159
Yeah, so 3.1 is the cost 3.1 million to demo the project, but you can sell the stuff that the project is made of for salvage for four point four, 5 million so it pencils.
01:00:02.550 --> 01:00:37.289
Yes, that's the beauty. It's valuable stuff. And then the you have organic farm ground if you've treated the land well, it's, you know, solar, as I like to say solar is lighter on the land than whatever you're doing today if you're doing some kind of Ag, especially like corn and bean farming, but even if you're doing, you know, grazing. Solar is probably lighter on that land. But I digress. Well, it's, it's time, John. Our listeners need to know how to find the commercial solar guy.
01:00:39.179 --> 01:00:51.389
Go outside and scream really loudly. Or commercial solar guy.com. That's our website. You can contact us there. You could give us a call.
01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:58.619
We have a phone number. You could send me an email. You could also go to Twitter, solar and mass and LinkedIn. John Fitzgerald Weaver. I'm all over Tim. What about
01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:01.829
where you could go to Vegas, September 11 to 14th.
01:01:02.550 --> 01:01:18.900
I'll be there for the whole week. Christian Roseland. And I will be taking the train Timothy from Boston to Vail way. No way. Yes, sir. No way. We'll be going through Chicago, getting some pizza going down south through arugula.
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:21.929
That's a long train ride with Christian Rosalynn
01:01:21.929 --> 01:01:23.909
to man, he's he's one of your brothers.
01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:25.050
I hope they have Wi Fi.
01:01:25.739 --> 01:01:33.269
I hope they do as well. So Christian, and I can talk about everything. So there's been a good lot of solar conversation going on in that train.
01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:36.449
So cool. So when do you get when do you arrive into Vegas?
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:42.630
Monday gonna be there late Sunday, early Monday, Sunday? No, the 10th. The 10th or
01:01:42.630 --> 01:02:27.659
the 10th is Sunday. I get laid on the 10th be setting up on the 11th. And then the trade show opens on the 12th 13th. And then I leave like midday on the 14th. But yeah, looking forward to Vegas already plus check it out. All right, well, find all of our content at clean power. hour.com Give us a rating in a review. on Apple and Spotify. That's really the those are the two most important platforms even if you've listened to us on some other platform. Go to Apple and Spotify to give us a rating and review and tell your friends about the show. Come to Vegas.
01:02:20.789 --> 01:02:40.920
I'll also be at mn ces event in October. And then at the Raiders, energy storage North America in November. So looking forward to meeting more of our listeners on the road. And with that, I'll say let's grow solar and storage. Thank you so much John Weaver.
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