Powering the Energy Transition with Lion Energy's Tyler Hortin | EP172

You know, energy is just getting more and more expensive. And it's with EBS and things like that. There's just so much need for it. And it creates so much instability. And we like to create stability in environments of instability. So our products are there to be able to provide you the energy when and where you need it.

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Today on the Clean Power Hour, my guest is Tyler Horton, he is the president and one of the cofounders of LION Energy. Welcome to the show Tyler.

Thank you, Tim, it's great to be here.

You know, my listeners are very familiar with me saying that if you're a solar professional, you have to be a solar and storage professional, because solar is intermittent. By nature, the sun comes up, the sun goes down. And but we're swimming in solar energy, we have five to 10,000 times more energy from the sun, to power all of society. And so storage is extremely important. And it's also important for the grid infrastructure, right? To do things like well clean the grid, for example, or provide resiliency to businesses and homeowners. when the grid goes down, right, it's not enough to have just a solar array, you need solar and batteries. And so they're a perfect pairing. And now we see in the utility space, that there's a market for, you know, utility storage alone. And as we were talking in the pre show, I know LION Energy as a residential and mobile energy storage company, but now you're expanding, you have a very robust resi product, and you're breaking into commercial and utility. So we're going to really geek out on your technology and your various platforms. But first, Tyler, give our listeners a little background on yourself, how did you get into the energy industry,

sir, so it's really based on helping individuals, families and organizations becoming energy independent. Like you mentioned, most renewables are, are good while the sun is shining, or the wind is blowing, or, or whatever it is, but we've been taught to kind of waste energy and not not worry about, you know, using the full amount of energy that's been produced. And with batteries, you can do that, you can optimize your your, your energy usage, you can store for during times of access for times that you need access. And so planning out your your energy usage, planning out how you're going to use that, that resource throughout your day, energy storage does that for you. So we created LION Energy to be able to help every building in America to have that energy storage, to be able to manage their energy correctly and be able to use use that energy to be able to rely on the energy they're they're producing. So in times of of shortage in times of issue with the with the grid, they've got that energy storage to be able to keep running and keep their their important devices going. And to be able to take ownership of their their energy.

I love what you said about every building, you know, I like to say today only a fraction of our buildings in America have batteries, right? But in 10 years, almost every home, certainly and many, many businesses are going to have batteries in them, right? It's just gonna happen. It's such a useful device. It's a sponge, right? It absorbs extra energy, and injects energy when you need energy when the grid goes down, or when you need to provide grid services like frequency regulation, for example, capacity, charge reduction, the things that we do, there's a stack, and we'll talk about that. But why why LION Energy? There's many things you could have done in the energy industry, why a battery company? Why lithium? You know, what was the confluence of events for you personally.

So Well, I think there was a shortage of good products. We wanted to create systems that you know, customer focus, we love, love products, love, love, providing really good products of work reliably. US based is a big thing for us. We wanted us based power and energy storage and you We just really believe in also the opportunity out there. It's, it's a whole new new industry being created. And every building in America needs energy storage, and we just wanted to be able to participate in that and help people to have the right solutions for their, for their, for their buildings.

So clarify if you would what you mean by American because, you know, in the solar industry, for example, you could have a panel factory that does panel assembly, but the cells are made in Asia, or in India. That's part of Asia too. So, so anyway, are you actually making cells yourself cells modules, and the full nine yards or what exactly does LION make?

So yeah, we have a sister company, American battery factory, who's who's going to be producing the actual cell here in the US, but we that then we take that cell, we prefer lithium iron phosphate is our chemistry of choice. And so that Lithium Iron Phosphate cell, which is we prefer prismatic format, that that cell can be put into our product. So we, we create the plastics, we create the, you know, metal containers, things like that the BMS, the EMS, we, I like to consider ourselves as a technology company, we are managing the system, in order to manage the system, you have to have control over the full system. And so that's really what we do at LION Energy is we are managing the battery, and, and the energy and how we're using it. And managing the home.

I'm glad you mentioned American battery factory, I had a lovely interview with Paul Henry, the founder and CEO, they're building a factory, I believe in Tucson, Arizona, and using some very interesting architecture, check out that interview if you haven't heard the interview, to our listeners. And so they're making Lithium Iron Phosphate cells for stationary. And perhaps also mobility, I'm not sure but doubling for stationary solutions. And you know, lithium iron phosphate is well known for being less prone to thermal runaway to safer chemistry. And so that, you know that that bodes well for putting a battery in your garage, right? You don't want there to be a thermal runaway event in your garage. And any electrical infrastructure has its hazards. So there's always a risk. But so let's talk about the product LION and what you're here. We're here at RE plus 2023. What is it that you're showing off? And what are you excited about? That's going on in LION.

So yeah, we we focus on providing products all the way from a handheld device, to a portable product that will run large appliances, run your fridge, freezer, washer, dryer, AC, and more portable. But here, here, we're focused on our sanctuary product sanctuary product is something that you would put on your home, so at your house, and to be able to manage whatever, however you're producing the energy, if it comes from the grid, if it comes from solar, if you have a gas generator, however you want to produce that power, we take it into our system, and then we manage it. And so we not only manage the energy coming in, but we also manage the home, and the usage within the home. So we we believe it's better to manage closer to where you're actually consuming the energy. And first, and then if you if you have access, you can sell back to the grid or, or do things like that, when you think about peak rates. And you know, energy is just getting more and more expensive. And it's with EVs and things like that. There's just so much need for it. And it creates so much instability. And we like to create stability in environments of instability. So our products are there to be able to provide you the energy when and where you need it.

So the sanctuary product, we were talking in the pre show, it's a scalable solution, right? Yes. And it comes in blocks of 13 kWh is our 1414 Yeah, kilowatt hour. So similar to a power wall. Yes. And, and

but typically a larger our, our inverter is an 8k inverter, okay, and so a little bit bigger than the Powerwall. Yep, yep. And then you can scale. So our inverter and battery are separate units that are certified together. So UL nine 540 A, so they're certified to work together. Ul 9549 540, a and then you can have multiple batteries with each inverter so Oh, to scalable to what? And

do you make all the hardware necessary to for example, let's say I have already a gas generator, and I want to add solar and battery? Yeah, do you make that package so to speak, that will make all those devices talk to one another and isolate from the grid. And then, you know, there's some nuances here when you're operating off grid, which I appreciate about Tesla's when I know best, where they will actually look at the weather forecast, and determine how much they're going to let you discharge your battery. Because it might be cloudy and rainy for three days, and you're not going to get solar energy or something like that. So I'm just curious if you could tell us a little more about how that works.

Absolutely, yeah. So we have a team of engineers and American Fork, Utah, that manage our prod products, we do provide the inverter and battery combo, we don't necessarily provide the solar that that you would get somewhere else. But we do provide everything that you need to be able to manage your home. So the inverter is kind of a it's a hybrid inverter, just much like Tesla, we do all those similar function where we have over the air updates, we're, we're helping our customer base to understand, hey, if there's an issue with your system, we can send updates to your phone, we have a web app, and we also have a app that is available on the phone to be able to understand how how you're using your power to be able to see, you know your home and, and what, what issues you might have. If you don't have enough solar, you can understand it through the app. If you need more. gas generator, yeah, however it is, we're helping the customer to be able to understand what they're using and how they're using it.

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Yeah, we love those those devices, I would say the key to, to being able to use use those effectively is being able to understand what you use in your home. And that's what our products do is they they show you, hey, this is this is how you're using your home, this is some, you know, you might need to shed some some loads and things like that. And then you might bring on an exterior device to be able to help you to view that our device doesn't necessarily do that, but it will manage will be able to tell you how you're using your home and where some of your shortfalls are. Yeah, so you can augment

and what do you say to the skeptical consumer who thinks that, you know, solar and battery is smoke and mirrors or too risky? Or can't do the job? You know, I'm just curious, what is what is it that you say to consumers to help them understand the value proposition of batteries? Yeah, I,

I tell consumers a Why don't you just try it. The great thing about what LION Energy does is we offer products even you know, more affordably. And so even if you want to start with a handheld device and understand how you're using energy, you know, at a small scale, but then we have a larger more portable device, a larger portable device that you can run bigger appliances in your home and understand how you're using that. But it's it's a lot more affordable to step into that. And so, you know, I would challenge you to just start understanding You know, some of your energy usage, you know, take a step forward. And then as you understand, you know how powerful it is to control your, your energy, make it make it an additional step forward. So, we'd like to offer products that people can start to understand what they're using, and then move into something more permanent. And, you know, when you think our sanctuary product, it's, it's running, it's, it's helping you to accomplish what you want to in the background. So you don't even have to do much, it's just get it set up. And, and then just use your use your app just to look at it throughout the day, and understand what you're what you're doing. And you can do that with our portable products. Also, we have an app, the same app will, will be able to tell you how you're using your portable devices and understand how much power using from from them. The other

mega trend here in the in the early 2020s Is that electrification of transportation is happening. Again, only. I think in the US now we've reached 5% of car sales are EVs are battery electrics, and, you know, in northern Europe, that's upwards of 75 80%. Now, yeah, but we're going to be charging a lot more cars at home. Yes. And that's an additional load on the grid, or on the battery. But the Evie obviously also has a battery. And there's that opportunity to do bi directional. Do you guys play in that space at all?

We do. When you think about your Eevee, I like to use the analogy, you, you are doubling the consumption at your home of energy. And so every Eevee that you bring into that home, you're doubling that consumption. So you bring two or three, and there's so much more need for that for that energy. So you need to think about, there's a way to manage that more effectively with energy storage, because you can charge during times that you have access. So being able to store excess in an energy storage device. That way, when you come home with your Eevee, you're able to charge it from the battery or from the grid, whatever is available. Yeah, whatever

is most economical also. Right,

exactly. Let's

let's talk about the value stack for a second. And then maybe we can wrap up with your larger scale solutions for CNI, and for, you know, grid scale, but how do you explain the value stack of batteries, let's say in California, which is, you know, let's face it, the largest solar and storage market, it's no longer the largest solar market, Texas has, has eclipsed California on a per annual install basis, but but with them 3.0. In California, storage pencils, much better. Solar doesn't pencil as well. And so we see the attachment rate of storage to solar going up dramatically. It was maybe in the 20s. And now it's in the maybe 70s. Now is what I hear. And and so there's a lot more solar and storage happening. But what do you say to either installers or consumers about the value stack.

So with batteries, especially in California, you're able to store during the day when it's when it's half or a third of the price. At night, it's two to three times the cost. And so and this happens every day, regardless of if you have solar when paired with it. If you have energy storage, you can store when the power is cheap and use it when it's expensive, and create that ROI. So and it's just it's gonna get over time, it's gonna get more and more difficult to manage your power appropriately. The reason the utilities do that is not to penalize, it's, it's really to help people to understand, hey, this is a this is a peak time when we prefer you, you charge your UV during the day or whatever it is. And so with energy storage, you can manage your energy appropriately. So when you think about utilities, utilities historically have been, hey, let's just take the power whenever. And now it's becoming more and more important to think about, you know, you think about the resiliency that California needs, and that's why they created that name 3.0 And Texas has some some of the same challenges and throughout the US. More and more locations are We're going to be dealing with these energy rates that are higher and higher. So the great thing about batteries is, if you can create an ROI today, it's going to be much quicker in five to 10 years, because it's going to get more and more expensive, you know, different times a day. And the battery's, you know, with this, these upgrades and things like that, we're able to do over the air updates, and keep your system, you know, at the front of, of all the technology, so that you don't have to so your system is managing your energy for you. And if you can create an ROI today, in five to 10 years, it's going to get that much better. And you know, so

Well, let's wrap up with a look at your larger scale products. Tell us about the CNI solution and the grid scale solutions that you're bringing to market?

Absolutely. So we have a cabinet, which you think about manufacturing, a lot of the utilities will charge peak or peak rates for when you turn on your equipment, because your equipment, spikes, right when it turns on. If so, in the state of State of Utah, if you're over a certain peak out for more than 15 minutes in a month, they charge you a significant amount of money. So our cabinet can be it can handle those peak rates, and also handle energy shifting. So what we're already talking about with charging when it's cheap and using it when it's expensive. But there's there's many of those scenarios that you can handle. So our Cabinet will do that on commercial products. And then utility products that does the same thing. So utilities have peaker plants and things like that, but our utility solution can help you store the energy when the when there's excess and use it when it's you know, and when you think about wind and and solar. You know, there's certain times of the day that you're you're producing excess. And being able to put a bat para battery with that solution is the ideal scenario in most cases.

And what kind of kWh are we talking about what the cabinet?

So cabinet, you're talking 100 kilowatt, 200 kilowatt hour, in most most cases, it's scalable, you can do up to as low as 30 per per cabinet, 30 kilowatt to 200 kilowatt hour. And then the utility scale, we start at one megawatt and three megawatt hour. Yeah. And then just grow from there. And that's a 20 foot container, a megawatt battery 20 foot container. Yeah.

And how are you shipping both of those products today? Or what's the roadmap?

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, we're continuously improving those products. And we send, like I said, the over the air updates, as we improve those, we have all the engineers in house here, and here in Utah, our information, something that's unique to us in I mean, there's, there's others, I think that do this, but all our information is stored in the US and managed in the US, which is a big deal to me, you know, making sure our security is being taken care of. But not only that, but we engineer it all in house here. And then we do significant QC procedure, and we have a really good customer service that that's able to help people to solve their problems and you know, get answers, you're gonna have a person answer your your phone call, if you call us. So

we're very good. How can our listeners find you, Tyler?

Um, yeah, just go to our website, lionenergy.com. There's there we we have. We use a texting tool and things like that on that. And you can communicate that way you can call into our offices, or email us, however, hours best,

awesome. Well, you can find all of our content at cleanpowerhour.com Give us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. And reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with my listeners. You can connect on LinkedIn or on the website. There's a way to make a comment, love to hear from you. And with that, I'll say let's grow solar and storage. I'm Tim Montague. Hey, listeners. This is Tim. I want to give a shout out to all of you. I do this for you. Twice a week. Thank you for being here. Thank you for giving us your time. I really appreciate you and what you're all about. You are part and parcel of the energy transition, whether you're an energy professional today, or an aspiring energy professional. So thank you. I want to let you know that the Clean Power Hour has launched a listener survey. And it would mean so much to me. If you would go to cleanpowerhour.com. Click on the About Us link, right there on the main navigation that takes you to the about page, and you'll see a big graphic listener survey, just click on that graphic, and it takes just a couple of minutes. If you fill out the survey, I will send you a lovely baseball cap with our logo on it. The other thing I want our listeners to know is that this podcast is made possible by corporate sponsors. We have chint power systems, the leading three phase string inverter manufacturer in North America. So check out CBS America. But we are very actively looking for additional support to make this show work. And you see here our media kit. With all the sponsor benefits and statistics about the show, you know, we're dropping two episodes a week. We have now over 320,000 downloads on YouTube. And we're getting about 45,000 downloads per month. So this is a great way to bring your brand to our listeners and our listeners are decision makers in clean energy. This includes projects executives, engineers, finance, project management, and many other professionals who are making decisions about and developing, designing, installing and making possible clean energy projects. So check out cleanpowerhour.com both our listener survey on the about us and our media kit and become a sponsor today. Thank you so much. Let's go solar and storage